A Message to Club Owners

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Bass Player:
"I won't get on your stage for less than $100.!"
Bar Owner:
"Then you won't be getting on my stage".

That's not necessarily ego tripping. Some musicians really do know what they are worth and a lot have no clue at all what they are worth.

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I am an artist and a business man that has no thin line between the two. Why should I let my artistic being be taken advantage of?

We know that most club owners think of bands as nothing more than live props.

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

That's not necessarily ego tripping. Some musicians really do know what they are worth and a lot have no clue at all what they are worth.

So do you have any tips on how to overcome those venues and reach a higher level? I mean, there's the obvious "if they don't pay, don't play," but how can we get our band names out there if we're not playing out? Obviously $200/small cut of sales isn't nearly what my 11-piece funk band should be getting paid, but we're new, so no one knows our name and doesn't know that we can keep people at the venue dancing and buying drinks.

I know I'm worth more as a bassist than I'm currently getting paid of course. But how do I get my name on the same bill as Nate Watts and Doug Johns if I'm not out there playing and making a name? lol I'm certainly not going to get to that level my simple business deals...

5sg.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Like I said, some clubs.

True,
I guess then that it is a "want" VS. "Need" scenario.

A bar may "want" a band to hopefully provide an atmosphere and attract customers but in the end.... they don't really "need" to.

All a bar really "needs" is product to sell (drinks).
I'm sure the Bud guy or Jack Daniels distributor has the better hand than a band leader when it comes down to negotiating price.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

So do you have any tips on how to overcome those venues and reach a higher level? I mean, there's the obvious "if they don't pay, don't play," but how can we get our band names out there if we're not playing out? Obviously $200/small cut of sales isn't nearly what my 11-piece funk band should be getting paid, but we're new, so no one knows our name and doesn't know that we can keep people at the venue dancing and buying drinks.





How do I get my name on the same bill as Nate Watts and Doug Johns? lol

5sg.

One is don't play your self short. Always remember there is always room for negotiations. When dealing with getting paid there should be 4 levels of target.

1.

Your primary asking price

2.

your ok I'll come down a little price

3.

This is the lowest I'll go but still within the realm of your sincerest integrity.

4.

Just free and hope something good comes out of it.(with a strong emphasis on hope).

And don't let being the new band on the block an excuse to allow yourself to be taken advantage of.


You would come out better playing festivals and definitely funk fests, the crowds are much larger than some small club and work on being the opening act for more established bands.

Remember festivals have a atmosphere that puts a different focus on the band. If you're playing a funk fest even though you may be the new guys on the block, people that are there will take the time to check out how you're bringing the funk.


And if you have a realistic idea of what you think your band is worth resort back to the 4 levels of target above.

Remember in these economical hard times and lack of respect for artist an 11 piece band is a tough one, especially when you're trying to establish a name.

Ever though about just turning the band into a trio or a quartet? It would get you a little farther sooner and you could then bring in the full band later.



And getting on the same bill as Nate and Doug, well that comes with time. Remember we all have to crawl before we can walk.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

I'm sure the Bud guy or Jack Daniels distributor has the better hand than a band leader when it comes down to negotiating price.

Exactly.

[drpepper]

Just a personal observation...this "$100 per man minimum" that's so common seems to be more of a part-timer thing. Not a single one of the full-time musicians that I know well enough to talk money with have any such rule. They get good paying jobs and no-so-good paying jobs and take all that they want or have to.

[Stewie26]

I have skimmed this thread and one thing I am curious about. With an eleven member band, I would think it would be difficult to even find club venues that can accommodate eleven persons on stage. For the past 18 months I have been playing in a five member band. Most stages at these clubs, with seating for 75 to 200 patrons, are cramped with just four to five band members. It would seem to me to only very large venues could accommodate your funk band. I would think this alone is going to limit your gig opportunites.

[drpepper]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Choosing to make a business out of doing what so many others are willing to do for free isn't really the best laid plan and therefore shouldn't be complained about when it doesn't work out as hoped.

Interesting. There was a time, I guess it really blossomed in the early '90s, when there was a similar effect in video production. The capabilities of consumer digital video cameras and desktop editing programs made it possible for anyone with a Handycam and a copy of Adobe Premiere to do what had previously been possible with high-end gear and serious know-how. There was a lot of complaining by people who had built businesses that had been charging $200+ per hour and had invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in gear and software that hobbyists were ruining the industry.

It's a tough one to take if you're getting the short end of the stick.

[Not yet]

Originally Posted by drpepper

Just a personal observation...this "$100 per man minimum" that's so common seems to be more of a part-timer thing. Not a single one of the full-time musicians that I know well enough to talk money with have any such rule. They get good paying jobs and no-so-good paying jobs and take all that they want or have to.

There it is..... Just did a HOB upstairs gig that paid in this realm w a stone cold pro sub drummer, tours regularly around the world and works every day as the town go to guy.

He'll play the big boy gigs one day, then play the $60 a man gig (plus tips, which is another story, some places we get $300 in tips) the next day. This is how he feeds his family and he plays for the joy of it. I'm a corporate geek and do it cause I need to.... At the same time we will walk away when it gets too low...

Like anything there always a tipping point

Last, we've played some lower paying gigs in high traffic clubs people dug us and got heavy payday private parties, you get out there and noticed it comes back to you...and to the competing bar owners

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

With an eleven member band, I would think it would be difficult to even find club venues that can accommodate eleven persons on stage. [...] I would think this alone is going to limit your gig opportunites.

You're quite right, that's something that we're struggling with as well. There are a handful of local venues that have great stages for our band, but 1) it's a struggle getting in there being so new and 2) other band members have played at a couple that they don't want to play at again simply because of the management. I've wanted to be in this kind of band playing this kind of music for a LONG time, but it'll be interesting to see where it goes.

Originally Posted by Not yet

Last, we've played some lower paying gigs in high traffic clubs people dug us and got heavy payday private parties, you get out there and noticed it comes back to you...and to the competing bar owners

This seems to be my funk band's approach at the moment. We definitely have a business aspect to our mentality as a whole, but we also want to get our name out there and develop a following, even if it might mean taking some lower paying gigs up front.

5sg.

[fivestringgecko]

Jauqo, thanks for your advice. Some good info and things we should all remember.

5sg.

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

Jauqo, thanks for your advice. Some good info and things we should all remember.

5sg.

You're welcome.

[Stewie26]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

I've wanted to be in this kind of band playing this kind of music for a LONG time, but it'll be interesting to see where it goes.
.

I can understand were you are coming from. IMO, nothing beats the sound of a live big band. I hope it works out for you.
Edit: Perhaps you should get some demos and hook up with a wedding/corporate booking agent. Thats were you guys belong and the money is good.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by NYCbassist

This is the same in NJ, PA & NC $400 - $500. There are some bigger clubs that pay more but it's tough to get in.

Seems like the threshold breaks around 15 hundred in Milwaukee. All that business is handled by a few agencies.

We have been able to catch a few of those deals but it's rare.

Blue

[fivestringgecko]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

I can understand were you are coming from. IMO, nothing beats the sound of a live big band. I hope it works out for you.
Edit: Perhaps you should get some demos and hook up with a wedding/corporate booking agent. Thats were you guys belong and the money is good.

This thread has prompted me to start doing research on talent/booking agents for our band, and we're working on a video demo... The horn player that sent me the initial article has a media production company. Hopefully we can get something put together and get the business side going soon. We do have a few videos from my first gig with them posted, but they have "new band jitters" type stuff... Rough spots. We're all professional musicians, but we're still getting used to playing as a group. :-)

This has been a good thread so far... Tips and discussion will only help us all, right? Hopefully more people continue to see it and chime in!

5sg.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

This seems to be my funk band's approach at the moment. We definitely have a business aspect to our mentality as a whole, but we also want to get our name out there and develop a following, even if it might mean taking some lower paying gigs up front.

5sg.

And once your approached don't miss the opportunity to leverage your value.

Again if your bringing in 11 pieces and your truly pulling off TOP imho it's a 3k minimum proposition.

Thing is, are you close to 3k opportunities, venues with that kind of budget?

Blue

[Stewie26]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

We do have a few videos from my first gig with them posted, but they have "new band jitters" type stuff... Rough spots.
5sg.

You only need is a 4 or 5 minute video with high lights only. Take all your raw footage to a PRO EDITOR and he can cut in and out of your best moments with smooth transitions and give your band a very professional look. Worth every penny to have a pro do it and you will see an ROI. Example: Here is a single camera 3 minute promo video of a cover band in the San Francisco area that gets lots of high paying corporate gigs. Check out the editing style. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvL2E-w-tcs

Edit: I think BlueWine will like the way this band dresses.

[obimark]

This is why everytime the conversation comes up (you know the one)- wouldn't it be great if we had a "keyboard/xyz" player, I verbally oppose it, because it's best to keep a band to 4-people. I could not imagine playing in a band with 11 people, the headaches of sound mixing alone but then dividing the peanuts these places pay between 11 people??! No F-King way- I'd love to play EW+F and Gap Band songs with the horns and everything but not like that.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

You only need is a 4 or 5 minute video with high lights only. Take all your raw footage to a PRO EDITOR and he can cut in and out of your best moments with smooth transitions and give your band a very professional look. Worth every penny to have a pro do it and you will see an ROI. Example: Here is a single camera 3 minute promo video of a cover band in the San Francisco area that gets lots of high paying corporate gigs. Check out the editing style. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvL2E-w-tcs

Edit: I think BlueWine will like the way this band dresses.

Very nice, looks like they shot with 2 cameras too.

It's a shame, I don't think we have a show band of that caliber in Milwaukee.

Blue

[fivestringgecko]

Thanks for the tip Stewie, and I think that's direction we're headed. We just need to get a couple more shows under our belts so that not every shot is from the same venue. We all got tied up with other gigs over the holidays though, so we're going to get back to this band in January. I'm actually pretty stoked about the band, if we can really get it to take off. There's only 2-3 other bands like us in Denver that I know of, and I think they're all just playing horn band versions of top 40 stuff... I don't think any of them are playing Tower of Power.

Anyway, my band isn't why I started the thread, we seem to be getting a little off topic... lol

I'll throw out another question as discussion fodder.

What are people's views on written contracts with club owners? Good, bad, indifferent? I could see it as a good insurance policy against club owners trying to stiff your band. On the other hand, the band has to be diligent about living up to the band's end of the agreement...

5sg.