A Message to Club Owners

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by obimark

This is why everytime the conversation comes up (you know the one)- wouldn't it be great if we had a "keyboard/xyz" player, I verbally oppose it, because it's best to keep a band to 4-people. I could not imagine playing in a band with 11 people, the headaches of sound mixing alone but then dividing the peanuts these places pay between 11 people??! No F-King way- I'd love to play EW+F and Gap Band songs with the horns and everything but not like that.

I hear you, we can't afford to add a keyboard player either.

With 11 pieces a 3k gig might not even bring $200.00 per man after lights, sound, and the agency cut.

There has to be some way larger bands can make money.

Blue

[MarkMgibson]

I agree with every word in that article, and I've been beating this drum for years with both club managers and musicians. "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys", and you should hear some of the chimps that get gigs around my area.

I have set prices depending on the type of gig, and if the management isn't willing to pay, they can get stuffed. I love to play as much as anyone else, but I'll be damned if I'll work for petrol money. If you stick to your guns, you'll find that many clubs will eventually fork out decent money once they start getting a reputation for hosting lousy live music. After all, it's not just bands that live or die based on their reputation; they very same thing is true for clubs.

[nortonrider]

The bands need the bars more than the bars need the bands.

This past summer I went to a local motorcycle event (a ride and bike show hosted by a local bar).
This was the 6th. annual and for the past 5 years there has been live music.
This year there was just the jukebox pumping out all of the standard classic rock / biker music.

Everyone partied just as hard as usual and no one seemed to care that there wasn't a band.
It certainly didn't affect the attendance at all.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

What are people's views on written contracts with club owners? Good, bad, indifferent? I could see it as a good insurance policy against club owners trying to stiff your band. On the other hand, the band has to be diligent about living up to the band's end of the agreement...

5sg.

Long and short, contracts don't have teeth without a deposit. However, they are useful for spelling out the details.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

This has been a good thread so far... Tips and discussion will only help us all, right? Hopefully more people continue to see it and chime in!

5sg.

Here's my take....

If you want to work often, and get paid in the beginning, your best bet is to follow a flexible format. Start out as a 4 or 5 piece, and then scale up based on pay. If the horn players are pros, they probably have other gigs and bands they play with, so you're not on the hook to get them all paying work all the time. Most of the them will understand if they can't play on every gig.

My band is a 5 piece band with horns. We just got started last August. I went with a 5 piece so that we can each make something more than a pittance, and have a base group that knows the material. I have the ability to scale up to 7 or more, depending on the gig. I can find and add a keyboard player, female vocalist, additional horns, etc. much easier if there is a paying gig attached. If I could get lots of well paying gigs, then I may consider keeping the additional players. The key is having a good pool of musicians, and it sounds like you have that. Having good charts helps, especially for bringing in someone cold.

As far as clubs, an 11 piece is a hard sell, especially if most budget for a 4 or 5 piece. It would be better to go do festivals, weddings, corporates, events, etc. where they may actually budget for that kind of money. I used to gig in Denver/Boulder/Breckenridge in the 90s, and the pay was abyssmal for a 4 piece and lots of rooms couldn't even hold a band that size. I saw a decent demand for Funk in Boulder, but again, not many rooms that can hold an 11 piece. Maybe try to get a weeknight at the Fox Theatre and use that to get good footage? One 9 piece Funk/R&B band around here does the college circuit, and that may be something to tap into.

As far as videos, here's my experience over the last couple of years. Clubs prefer live video, and events prefer produced video. Clubs are savy music buyers because they book bands regularly, and they know a glossy demo video, and they are interested in selling alcohol. So they want to see a band that doesn't suck, and has a decent crowd that is getting into the music. On the other hand, music buyers for events are not savvy music buyers, and they may hire a band only once in their lives, and they want to see a produced video. All bands in that realm use produced videos, and it can cost quite a bit. Fortunately, I was able to do alot myself, and got something decent enough for an agency to pick us up. If you want to check out some bands and videos, you can check them out here (my band King Comfy is there as well). http://www.washbest.com/Washbest/joomla/dance-bands

As far as agencies, I would seek out the ones that do weddings and events. Club agents will have you doing lowball gigs in the beginning until you have enough draw for one of their A rooms. The A rooms tend to have high overhead, so the band has to draw and keep the built-in crowd for the bar to make money.

That's all I got for now.....

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[modulusman]

I don't see an 11 piece band ever making much money at a bar gig. Around where I live you might get $800.00 a night if you are real good draw. Most bar gig are two nighters for about $800-1000.00. The money is in private events/weddings any place that isn't dependent on alcohol sales to pay the band.

[rimbaud]

This **** happens everywhere on the planet. In my city in France I had to struggle with a club owners that wanted me to play for free, do the sound guy fro free (well "drink every beer you want dude we're friend", know what I mean ??)

I ended with that cos' worse of it all, bands asked me to play with them for free, for fun, cos' you know just playing for fun will get you many many many bars and clubs to play.

And they rehearse twice a month.... the music is really really bad, and when a club close definitely for administrative reasons - yes cos' in France you MUST have a music industry license to bring bands in your bar or restaurant - all the musician there claim to the government complot to kill the music, the culture, etc.... they become the firsts defenders of their own exploiter !! silly hu ???

I've auditionned succesfully in a tribute band, but I told them first before the first audition rehearsal "50 € per date only for me, not less", they understood that it is also a job, even if it's passion and love for music

The fact is that it gives a sense of responsibility to each band's member now: everyone, even me, is involved to find dates paid not under 400 €.

I'm the only professional in the band, they all have jobs but they understand because they would do the same for their own job, and the bar owner wouldn't give away, all his drinks or food for nothing.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

The bands need the bars more than the bars need the bands.

This past summer I went to a local motorcycle event (a ride and bike show hosted by a local bar).
This was the 6th. annual and for the past 5 years there has been live music.
This year there was just the jukebox pumping out all of the standard classic rock / biker music.

Everyone partied just as hard as usual and no one seemed to care that there wasn't a band.
It certainly didn't affect the attendance at all.

How does this help?

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by modulusman

I don't see an 11 piece band ever making much money at a bar gig. Around where I live you might get $800.00 a night if you are real good draw. Most bar gig are two nighters for about $800-1000.00. The money is in private events/weddings any place that isn't dependent on alcohol sales to pay the band.

True, 11 pieces is not really for small bars & clubs for several reasons.

Blue

[ksandvik]

I have totally different view to this all. Bars are dying. The heydays of bars are over pretty much. Places are closing left and right. Bar owners do stupid things to stay in business like trying to pay as little as possible and force musicians to do their PR. Or, as over here in NorCal, they just have plenty of jams where the jam attendants are frustrated old-wannabes that still think they could play something they never were able to pull off. How many bar customers like to listen to such awful noise?

Anyway, to end with a positive view. There are other venues like more busy restaurants and hotel lobbies as well as private and public events. Those places are pretty receptive to music as long as the band knows how to behave noise-wise. And they usually pay well. And no need to do facebook/tweet/poster work. Needless to say, you can't play blues rock, Brown Eyed Girl and similar stuff for this new generation of audience so you need to rethink the playlist and be original and creative.

[Eric Perry]

Originally Posted by ksandvik

I have totally different view to this all. Bars are dying. The heydays of bars are over pretty much. Places are closing left and right...

In my area, this is 110% accurate!

[CalboDaGo]

sorry, i dont spend enough time here to know how to highlight quotes and such. i live in milwaukee, i gig almost constantly, i host a jam1 night a week, and i attend most other open jams when im not working/ rehearsing. @ BLUEWINE what band are you in? where do you play? and what casino do you make $2,500? one of my groups, Christopher's Project plays Potawotomi Casino regularly, and we may pull in $1000-1500 (not including tips /cd sales

[lfmn16]

I have been saying this for years, although not nearly as eloquently. As long as you have bands willing to play for free, or even pay to play AND club owners who don't understand the concept of building a following for their club, nothing will change. Well, it might change; things could get worse.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by bluewine

How does this help?

Blue

The story was posted as an example of my first statement...

"The bands need the bars more than the bars need the bands."

A working band with no place to play isn't a "working" band.
A bar on the other hand is still a viable retail business with or without live music.

If all of the bars in your area all decided to stop having live music, how much would your band gig seriously?

Maybe weddings, private partys, the occasional festival or street fair?

People that want to got to a bar are going to go to the bar whether there is a band playing or not.
Live music is just "icing on the cake" for many, nice to have, but not a necessity.

Like it or not..... In the real world, Bar owners have the upper hand - period!

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by fivestringgecko

So do you have any tips on how to overcome those venues and reach a higher level? I mean, there's the obvious "if they don't pay, don't play," but how can we get our band names out there if we're not playing out? Obviously $200/small cut of sales isn't nearly what my 11-piece funk band should be getting paid, but we're new, so no one knows our name and doesn't know that we can keep people at the venue dancing and buying drinks.

If you want to make money, you need to concentrate on the business end of show business.

What market research did you do in order to know that your area could support an 11 piece band? How many other bands are doing it in your area AND making money? How many clubs hire 11 piece bands and what do they pay? How much do you want to make per night per person? Even a hundred dollars each is $1100 a night; how many places in your area pay that?

If you are playing because you love to play then don't worry about it. If you want to make money, you need a plan.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by ksandvik

I have totally different view to this all. Bars are dying. The heydays of bars are over pretty much. Places are closing left and right. Bar owners do stupid things to stay in business like trying to pay as little as possible and force musicians to do their PR. Or, as over here in NorCal, they just have plenty of jams where the jam attendants are frustrated old-wannabes that still think they could play something they never were able to pull off. How many bar customers like to listen to such awful noise?

Anyway, to end with a positive view. There are other venues like more busy restaurants and hotel lobbies as well as private and public events. Those places are pretty receptive to music as long as the band knows how to behave noise-wise. And they usually pay well. And no need to do facebook/tweet/poster work. Needless to say, you can't play blues rock, Brown Eyed Girl and similar stuff for this new generation of audience so you need to rethink the playlist and be original and creative.

It's regional, it's not that bad in Milwaukee.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by CalboDaGo

sorry, i dont spend enough time here to know how to highlight quotes and such. i live in milwaukee, i gig almost constantly, i host a jam1 night a week, and i attend most other open jams when im not working/ rehearsing. @ BLUEWINE what band are you in? where do you play? and what casino do you make $2,500? one of my groups, Christopher's Project plays Potawotomi Casino regularly, and we may pull in $1000-1500 (not including tips /cd sales

My band does not play casinos, and we have never made $2,500.00.

We play small biker bars and are paid between $400.00 - $500.00. In the summer we also play the Harley stage at Summerfest and all of the Milwaukee area festivals & fairs.

I saw Christophers project at Summerfest, they opened for Hale Berry's ex husband.

Blue

We play mostly out in the burbs, only gig in Milwaukee is at Mamies on 35th & National.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

The story was posted as an example of my first statement...

"The bands need the bars more than the bars need the bands."

A working band with no place to play isn't a "working" band.
A bar on the other hand is still a viable retail business with or without live music.

If all of the bars in your area all decided to stop having live music, how much would your band gig seriously?

Maybe weddings, private partys, the occasional festival or street fair?

People that want to got to a bar are going to go to the bar whether there is a band playing or not.
Live music is just "icing on the cake" for many, nice to have, but not a necessity.

Like it or not..... In the real world, Bar owners have the upper hand - period!

This is a generalization, for our circuit it's just not that bad.

Recently we have even had bars that stopped having live music come back to us and book multiple dates.

The bars and clubs we play have patrons that come specifically to hear live blues/ rock.

Blue

[nortonrider]

Good for you!

now ask yourself this........
If you stopped playing at your regular bars, do you think they would go out of business?

Like it or not..... In the real world, Bar owners have the upper hand - period!

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Good for you!

now ask yourself this........
If you stopped playing at your regular bars, do you think they would go out of business?

Like it or not..... In the real world, Bar owners have the upper hand - period!

To a degree, however bars are still booking bands.

You have to work hard to acquire and maintain their business.

Blue