micro managing the kid's band...

[jive1]

I think by the time I'm done writing, this will be pretty long..........

There's lots of things wrong in this situation. But the main thing for me is that the OP is literally a man among boys, and that gives him an unfair advantage in lots of things. By his stage of life, he should have more money, ability to drive, better ability to articulate, a physical advantage, more connections, etc. If my kid were in a band with someone who pushed their weight around like that, I would pull my kid from that project in a heartbeat. I want them to explore, experiment, develop their tastes, develop their skills, learn to compromise, learn to lead, exercise their independence and have a good time. Being in a situation like the OP states wouldn't give my kid that opportunity. I might flex a little if the adult was more of a mentor figure who had vast amounts of experience and talent they can convey to them, but in no way would I do that for someone who is new to playing music themselves. It would be the blind leading the blind, with one blind dude holding the chain.
Also, scientific studies have found that people who pick up music in their youth experience and approach music differently than those who pick it up as adults. Combine that with the difference in age, it will be harder to come to agreements on material. It's even hard for folks who are peers to do. It's even harder when you have a group of kids who are learning their own autonomy and developing their own identity apart from their parents.

Now that I'm a parent, I talk to my musician peers more about stuff like this. Most the guys who are out there working really seem to take a more hands off approach in terms of their kids, acting more as a coach or mentor, if anything at all. Oddly, it seems like the parents that don't play music are the ones that seem to be more pushy about it.
One of my friends has a son who is in a Metal band, and he was selling his Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier. I asked him if he considered giving it to his son, and he said "NO WAY!" He figured since he already set him up with giggable stuff that he hasn't learned to take care of, giving him a nice amp like that wouldn't make sense. He'd rather have him learn to use what he has, while working and saving up for something better so he could appreciate it more.
I was talking to one of my friends from my first band in high school who is still out there gigging and running sound. We reminisced about the old times, and how different playing gigs now was compared to the 'good ole days'. We talked about how great it would be if we could do it again. It wasn't about the money, fame, getting somewhere, accomplishing goals, etc. It was about the friendship and the music. If anything, we'd PAY money to have that same freedom, energy and experiences again. I'd hate to imagine what that would be like if one of our parents was always hovering around us. Having the better gear or opportunities wouldn't have been worth it for us, if it meant the parents got involved. We were much happier playing through our PA speakers mounted in cardboard boxes playing Metal and Punk.

People ask me all the time if I push music on my kid, and I say no. They are usually surprised because my son loves music and instruments at a very early age. But, he's just around it often. He sees me playing at home and in public. There's musical instruments everywhere, in just about every room. He loves coming to the shop, or watching a rehearsal. If he gets into music it's because it's just a normal part of his life, not because I pushed it on him. I want him to learn to love it, and I would hate to have something that has been so enjoyable, fulfilling and challenging throughout my life tainted by pushing the adult world on it too early. So I encourage him to explore and discover. Play a broken 3 string violin with a curtain rod? Sure....why not.

[Bass Viking]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I was in a band when I was 14, called Nightwind (sounds like someone farting in bed).

LMAO!

It reminds of those Land Before Time movies my kids used to watch, where the dinosaurs had alternate expressions for certain words. For example dreams were “night pictures”, rain was “skywater”, etc. The local brontosaurass had a severe case of nightwind!

[Rockbassist4]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I was in a band when I was 14, called Nightwind (sounds like someone farting in bed)..

Could have been worse. Your band might have been called Nocturnal Emissions. (If you don't know what that means, look up Kip Addotta. He wrote a song about them)

[hrodbert696]

+1 to hands-off. My 14-year-old son's buddies decided to form a band and they "practice" in my basement. Lord, they're awful. None has been playing their instrument for more than a year, some of them a lot less, and they have no idea how to listen to each other. Every Sunday afternoon I have to bite my tongue to stop from going down there and giving the singer singing lessons and the bassist bass lessons and.... But it's THEIR band, not MY band, and I'm just going to ruin it for them by giving any advice they haven't asked for.

And there may be light at the end of the tunnel: last Sunday, I actually heard the bass and drums lock into each other. For about half a verse.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by jive1

I think by the time I'm done writing, this will be pretty long..........

There's lots of things wrong in this situation. But the main thing for me is that the OP is literally a man among boys, and that gives him an unfair advantage in lots of things. By his stage of life, he should have more money, ability to drive, better ability to articulate, a physical advantage, more connections, etc. If my kid were in a band with someone who pushed their weight around like that, I would pull my kid from that project in a heartbeat. I want them to explore, experiment, develop their tastes, develop their skills, learn to compromise, learn to lead, exercise their independence and have a good time. Being in a situation like the OP states wouldn't give my kid that opportunity. I might flex a little if the adult was more of a mentor figure who had vast amounts of experience and talent they can convey to them, but in no way would I do that for someone who is new to playing music themselves. It would be the blind leading the blind, with one blind dude holding the chain.
Also, scientific studies have found that people who pick up music in their youth experience and approach music differently than those who pick it up as adults. Combine that with the difference in age, it will be harder to come to agreements on material. It's even hard for folks who are peers to do. It's even harder when you have a group of kids who are learning their own autonomy and developing their own identity apart from their parents.

Now that I'm a parent, I talk to my musician peers more about stuff like this. Most the guys who are out there working really seem to take a more hands off approach in terms of their kids, acting more as a coach or mentor, if anything at all. Oddly, it seems like the parents that don't play music are the ones that seem to be more pushy about it.
One of my friends has a son who is in a Metal band, and he was selling his Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier. I asked him if he considered giving it to his son, and he said "NO WAY!" He figured since he already set him up with giggable stuff that he hasn't learned to take care of, giving him a nice amp like that wouldn't make sense. He'd rather have him learn to use what he has, while working and saving up for something better so he could appreciate it more.
I was talking to one of my friends from my first band in high school who is still out there gigging and running sound. We reminisced about the old times, and how different playing gigs now was compared to the 'good ole days'. We talked about how great it would be if we could do it again. It wasn't about the money, fame, getting somewhere, accomplishing goals, etc. It was about the friendship and the music. If anything, we'd PAY money to have that same freedom, energy and experiences again. I'd hate to imagine what that would be like if one of our parents was always hovering around us. Having the better gear or opportunities wouldn't have been worth it for us, if it meant the parents got involved. We were much happier playing through our PA speakers mounted in cardboard boxes playing Metal and Punk.

People ask me all the time if I push music on my kid, and I say no. They are usually surprised because my son loves music and instruments at a very early age. But, he's just around it often. He sees me playing at home and in public. There's musical instruments everywhere, in just about every room. He loves coming to the shop, or watching a rehearsal. If he gets into music it's because it's just a normal part of his life, not because I pushed it on him. I want him to learn to love it, and I would hate to have something that has been so enjoyable, fulfilling and challenging throughout my life tainted by pushing the adult world on it too early. So I encourage him to explore and discover. Play a broken 3 string violin with a curtain rod? Sure....why not.

And this is why you are a god, Jive. Great post!

[delta7fred]

When my daughter (drummer) joined a band at school I was instructed by my wife to drive her to rehearsals.

I always took a good book for wet days and a pair of walking boots and a map for dry ones (they rehearsed on a farm). I never got involved unless asked, which was very rarely.

[wrench45us]

when I think of what my parents put up with when our neighborhood band practiced in the basement, I have some appreciation of just how patient and tolerant my parents were.
It took years for this to dawn on me.
But I do remember after about a year when I came upstairs my mom telling me, "You're sounding better, pretty good sometimes."
How dense was I that I never even considered that they would be listening? as if they had a choice, let alone notice how we were playing, but it was true we had gotten a lot better and started getting jobs playing out and that little honest comment meant enough that I remember it all these years later. Left a much better impression than ever would have happened with somebody telling us/me how/what to play.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by wrench45us

But I do remember after about a year when I came upstairs my mom telling me, "You're sounding better, pretty good sometimes."

In my friend's basement, his mom would usually yell at us "Quit swearing over the PA!". She happened to also run in-home daycare as well.

I have a deeper appreciation for what she put up with.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by jive1

LOL!

On the bright side, at least they didn't have phones with video cameras and Youtube back then. The damage could be much worse.

Very true. At least I know they'll never do that. It would be a bit of a worry these days though. Kids seem to give no thought at all to posting anything and everything on the net. They seem to think that if they film or photograph it, even without permission, they own it. When I think back to some of the hideously embarrassing things I did when I was young, I'm glad that technology wasn't around.

[DvbcBass]

I always had guitars around the house while my kids were young,but it was when my son was 14 he told me that one of his goals for the summer was to learn to play the guitar.He senced my enthusiasm and He then added "slow down Dad , I want a real teacher "So I helped him find a teacher, paid for it , picked him up from his lessons downtown but I never gave advice unless he asked me for it, which was at least a year later and by that time he could play anything I could.That was 7 years ago and he still plays everyday . We now have music in common and can Jam once in a while but allowing him to develope without me hovering over him allowed him to find his own voice.

[new2bassguitar]

Well it's not the Hives...

but a couple points before i go into that. first off, i am glad i could unite the entire talkbass forum against me, not sure how that got started, if you read my original post, it is written light-heartedly and definitely self aware... come on, a title called "micro managing the kids band" and you guys think its not a light-hearted post?

anyhow, really to respond to all this would take to long, definitely appreciate all the viewpoints, definitely some common themes across responses, and if you guys have that much in common on responses, i will take that as a definite truth: leave the kids alone. sure, got it.

a couple comments before we get started, the kid taught me how to play the bass, so how many of you had that happen? and not saying i can play for beans, but i can make noise in the basement with everybody else if needed.

also, one other point and just playing devil's advocate on this, lets say i do piss the kid off into not playing, what are the drawbacks to that?

besides less hearing loss, how many guys on the forum make more the average US income by playing bass? i don't think he at risk of losing any money by not playing music... who is the most rich & famous non-singing bass player known to the general public? i think it's Randy Jackson. who is number 2? who knows.

okay, for what it's worth, adults can perform in a facilitative role with children, i.e. help build frameworks around decisions, provide data and let them come to a conclusion. so back to song choice, here is what I (the adult) did:

The band hasn't agreed on a single song choice for the talent show (which they want to do) in, i don't know, 48 weeks. i had each kid come up with a list of 5 songs, working with their parents (because its just not one kid with a hover-parent, it's four) and then we took all these songs and made a chart and put categories to rank them in. we also decided what the definition of the categories were. for example, one category was audience appeal so we tried to define what that was. another category was playability, another category was can we make the song original, then we had each kid's individual interest level in playing that song.

we then listened to each song and ranked them in these categories as high, medium, low and then scored these rankings. we debated all the rankings until we came to group consensus and the kid's made the majority of the decisions. yes, adults on the scene provided some input, for example, hell no the pokemon theme song is not a good idea, but by and large the kids called the shots.

so we had a big matrix with all this data and the top 2 songs bubbled to the top, and it was interesting, because for each of the two top rated songs, the kid vote was high, high, high, low so you could see at least 2 kids were dynamically kind of opposed to each other. but even taking out the other voting categories, these were the two top songs, so they can't argue that it wasn't what the group decided.

anyhow, it was a very memorable experience and quite fun for the kids. the songs they picked are awesome and we have some great ideas to make them original. really, they are high school winning ideas (if they can pull it off) and not just middle school winning ideas.

now with 6 weeks left to go, we just have to execute on it.

so the takeaway from this diatribe to you guys is as follows: i knew going into my original post that i can't micro-manage the kids band, i can sponsor and facilitate the band until they take ownership (or not) on their own. if i did turn my son against music, and believe me it's kind of the opposite, that's not the end of the world. maybe he would focus more on something else, basketball, homework, etc.

also, it is good to set goals, to prepare and train for them, and then meet them.

it's called ambition... its good to have.

[One Drop]

I'm seeing some cognitive dissonance here.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

now with 6 weeks left to go, we just have to execute on it.



it's called ambition... its good to have.

THEY have to execute.

Ambition is great to have, not to have forced upon you.

[TBrett]

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

besides less hearing loss, how many guys on the forum make more the average US income by playing bass? i don't think he at risk of losing any money by not playing music... who is the most rich & famous non-singing bass player known to the general public? i think it's Randy Jackson. who is number 2? who knows.

Not sure how this is relevant. Are you saying it's okay if you turn your son off playing music because he won't make money anyway? If he wants to be a professional musician, then yes, making money eventually has to be part of the equation. It will likely take a lot of time and work for him to get there. But for many artists, it is not just about the money, it's about the joy of making music. How can you ever justify turning a young person - or anyone - off something they love? And FWIW, there's lotsa folks on this forum that make their living from music. It doesn't matter whether their income is above average or not. Not the point, and not the question you posed in your OP.

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

okay, for what it's worth, adults can perform in a facilitative role with children, i.e. help build frameworks around decisions, provide data and let them come to a conclusion.

Teaching, guiding, yes. And good for you in taking some time to demonstrate how to come to consensus as a group. Great for them to get a sense of this at a young age. But...

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

we have some great ideas to make them original. really, they are high school winning ideas (if they can pull it off) and not just middle school winning ideas.

now with 6 weeks left to go, we just have to execute on it.

You're an adult. What's in this for you, trying to push a group of 12 year olds to be, well, older than they are? It really sounds like you're trying to live out your own unrequited dreams here. Find your own band with guys closer to your age and let your son enjoy his 12 year old exploration in music. You can still advise and support and even jam sometimes, but let him have his own experience without your own needs and expectations getting in there.

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

if i did turn my son against music, and believe me it's kind of the opposite, that's not the end of the world. maybe he would focus more on something else, basketball, homework, etc.

How do you know if it's the end of the world or not? You're not him. Why don't you let him decide that?

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

also, it is good to set goals, to prepare and train for them, and then meet them.

it's called ambition... its good to have.

Ambition is good to have. But at 12 years of age, I think a little slack is called for. If he and his friends can't get it together to pick some songs to work up for the talent show, then maybe their heart's not really in this thing. Maybe they're just going through the motions because their parents are so hung up about it. Help them find a bass player their own age, have all parents take a big step back, and see if the band wants to keep going. If this band doesn't work out and your son wants to keep playing, he'll find others to work with. As did so many on this forum.

[rockinrayduke]

OP-you and the other parents need to quit trying to Honey Boo Boo these kids. Get out of the way and let them play. They'll figure it out and will certainly have more fun doing it than having a parents committee figure out what songs they should play.

When you and the other parents get involved you take away the power of the kids to figure out the hierarchy of the band. Let the natural order work out. Somebody in that bunch of kids will take more of a leadership role and will be someone their own age the rest can rally around. If it doesn't work out for them, then life goes on. This could be the start of something really fun and educational for them, don't ruin it for them. Let the kids play.


Peace out.

[Frank Tuesday]

Originally Posted by new2bassguitar

...definite truth: leave the kids alone. sure, got it...

...lets say i do piss the kid off into not playing, what are the drawbacks to that?

...so back to song choice, here is what I did...

... kid's made the majority of the decisions...

...you could see at least 2 kids were dynamically kind of opposed to each other...

...so they can't argue that it wasn't what the group decided...

... we have some great ideas to make them original...

...now with 6 weeks left to go, we just have to execute on it...

...i knew...that i can't micro-manage the kids band...

...it is good to set goals, to prepare and train for them, and then meet them. it's called ambition...

HIVES


Your job as a parent isn't to leave them alone. It is to leave them alone until they ask for your input. What are you really teaching them by getting involved? You aren't teaching them how to solve their own problems and conflicts. You are teaching them that if they do nothing, eventually someone will fix the problem for them. Your level of involvement should be only how much involvement your child asks for. Be supportive and do what you can to help only when asked for it.

[hdracer]

And on some guitar forum there is a young guitarist complaining about how his overbearing father is taking all the fun out of playing..............

[One Drop]

At some point you have to ask yourself if it is more important that your kids win this thing or that they get the most out of the experience of being young kids in a band.

If you follow everyone's advice here they probably won't win. Can you handle that? Be honest with yourself when answering this question.

[jive1]

Not to be too facetious, but this kinda sounds like a sitcom episode.

Kid plays guitar, then dad decides to learn to play bass. Kid and dad have fun for a while, until dad gets really into it and they start a band. They have fun for a while, but Dad being a dad, tries to push things through for the big talent show. Other parents get involved, and conflict ensues, so the kids drag their feet. The parents decide to have a board meeting with charts, matrices, rubrics, and metrics to decide on the one song to play. The problem is solved, or so we think.........

The kids pretend to be happy for the sake of the parents, but deep down they are really depressed because they really wanted to play the Pokemon theme. One of them goes to the supermarket to talk to the old Rockstar that bags groceries about his problem. The Rockstar is like "Dude, this is rock and roll, play whats in your heart, man! It's about freedom dude!". So the kid talks to his bandmates to come up with a plan. The kids rig a pedal that would make the bass amp cut out, and decide on the day of the talent show, they would kill the bass and go ahead and play Pokemon. It's their turn to play, they count out to play the Hives, and instead play Pokemon. The drummer hits the pedal to kill the bass, and they rock out Pokemon like no other. The crowd goes crazy, and dad goes crazier. The kids win the talent show. Afterwards, Dad and the kid talk, and Dad apologizes for getting carried away. The kid forgives him, and thanks him for all his support. They go out for pizza, with their arms on their shoulders, and the credits roll in..........................

[MarkMgibson]

Well I'm hooked, so what happens in the next episode? LOL