Need Noise Ordinance Advise (ATTN: Armchair Lawyers)

[warwick.hoy]

http://www.spokanecity.org/services/...tion=10.08.020

Paying Particular attention to Section D; Paragraph 4.

I'm pretty sure that we are breaking the law. Thing is the only complaint is coming from a disgruntled old guy, who drives a 150cc dirt bike (might be smaller, I know nothing about bikes), and lives about a block away. He threatened to call the cops, but we persisted and nothing came of it. On a different day he has since raced by and beeped at us with his little meeper of a horn.

We rehearse in a detached garage in an alleyway and we have received nothing but compliments from the surrounding neighbors (the folks across the alley are deaf). We also abide by their requests that we finish up by 9pm and we are generally done before that. We rehearse twice a week sometimes more if there is a gig coming up.

I'm considering a new rehearsal space.

Note: I'm off to work, but will check back when I return home. Thanks in advance for your advice.

~James

[ErebusBass]

Section D, Paragraph 4:
"The creation of frequent, repetitive and/or continuous sounds which emanate from real or personal property, such as sounds from audio equipment, video equipment, musical instruments, band sessions and/or social gatherings, which are audible at a distance greater than fifty feet from the source of such sounds at any time."

Sounds to me like one of you needs to put down your instrument, and walk fifty feet away from your practice space. If you can hear noise, and especially if it is still loud, then you are breaking the law. If this gentleman who's giving you problems won't let up, you're probably going to have to change something.

You could either find a new rehearsal space, or try to soundproof the room a little bit. Or maybe turn down? I know that's not always a viable possibility with a loud drummer, but there's no reason to be at gig volume for a practice.

[ashtray]

We practice in a garage in a neighborhood. we've had the cops called on us twice for disturbing the peace, by the same neighbor. All the other neighbors are fine with us.

That said, even with the door down, it doesn't contain the sound very well, and I took a walk while we were playing a song and could hear us very clearly for a block away. Since then we've put mutes on the drums and cymbals, and have turned our instruments down considerably. We're still loud IMHO, but much less than before. If you're inside the house of one of the neighbors you can't hear us unless you have your windows open.

we looked into sound proofing the garage, but it's a very costly undertaking - and one that no one seems to have the time or energy for. So we tread carefully.

When the cops came, they gave us a lecture, but didn't confiscate our stuff or give us a fine. But next time who knows...

[warwick.hoy]

Thanks for the advice guys. I like it loud but we will discuss muting the drums and turning down. Perhaps turning down will help with gear wear and tear. I have yet to find a suitable rehearsal space.

[Jeb]

This kind of stuff is so simple. If you are causing an "issue" with your neighbors then you can (and will) be shut down at that location. Doesn't matter what steps you take to remedy that, you will lose this fight. They don't like you. Consider your new rehearsal space wisely.

I'd like to hear what your situation is 6 mos. from now. Let us know!

[ric1312]

Thing, is even if you are within the ordinance you can still get in trouble if someone calls.

We had problems a while back, with just one neighbor, even though we usually stopped by 10 to make sure we weren't making our nieghbors mad.

I tossed around the idea of different soundproofing solutions. We had a large 4th party and faced the amps out the garage door, with their backs against the back wall. Left them there next practice and found the sound didn't escape nearly as much out of the garage. No more complaints, can even play louder if we wanted. Before this we had the amps facing out from one of the side walls.

So, maybe just experiment at one practice and see if aiming the amps in a different direction will help.

[Jeb]

Originally Posted by ric1312

We had problems a while back, with just one neighbor, even though we usually stopped by 10 to make sure we weren't making our nieghbors mad.

So you're still there? Do I stand corrected? Nice job. But one persistent neighbor is all it takes, whether you stop by 10 or not. Try and put this into perspective.

There was a thread awhile back that I got involved in because the notion was that bar owners shouldn't be able to allow smoking IN THEIR OWN ESTABLISHMENT because some patrons might disapprove (even though these patrons could go somewhere else). I lost.

This is different because the encroachment is real. Try to think about this from a perspective other than your own.

I'm a working, rehearsing bass player, but even I wouldn't want a bunch of players (who think that they sound great) to encroach on my enjoyment of my own property. I would also make every effort to ensure that my endeavor didn't offend my neighbor. Can the forum understand that, or are we so enamored to the ME, ME, ME way of thinking?

[Rick Auricchio]

Soundproofing is only possible when you have lots of money and are OK changing the garage considerably.

It takes many layers of heavy material (drywall, soundboard, plywood), well sealed, to stop sound. The structure may not withstand the weight without additional strength, at which point you're rebuilding the entire garage.

You may never be able to stop bass, because it will couple to the walls and they'll vibrate it to the outdoors.

[warwick.hoy]

Originally Posted by Jeb

So you're still there? Do I stand corrected? Nice job. But one persistent neighbor is all it takes, whether you stop by 10 or not. Try and put this into perspective.

There was a thread awhile back that I got involved in because the notion was that bar owners shouldn't be able to allow smoking IN THEIR OWN ESTABLISHMENT because some patrons might disapprove (even though these patrons could go somewhere else). I lost.

This is different because the encroachment is real. Try to think about this from a perspective other than your own.

I'm a working, rehearsing bass player, but even I wouldn't want a bunch of players (who think that they sound great) to encroach on my enjoyment of my own property. I would also make every effort to ensure that my endeavor didn't offend my neighbor. Can the forum understand that, or are we so enamored to the ME, ME, ME way of thinking?

At least on my end, I'm totally taking it from another person's perspective. For sure the only complaint has come from a bitter, life hating, know it all armchair policeman; but if he is the only one being vocal about it, how many other people are not pleased but aren't speaking up.

I'm totally trying to be sensitive to the neighbors.

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

Soundproofing is only possible when you have lots of money and are OK changing the garage considerably.

It takes many layers of heavy material (drywall, soundboard, plywood), well sealed, to stop sound. The structure may not withstand the weight without additional strength, at which point you're rebuilding the entire garage.

You may never be able to stop bass, because it will couple to the walls and they'll vibrate it to the outdoors.

I have helped build an Iso-booth before and am very familiar with what it takes to sound proof it. The thing had to weigh a ton after all the drywall, dead-board etc. I don't see soundproofing someone elses garage (which was to be a temporary rehearsal space anyway) as an option.

I think I'm either going to rent a house with a basement. Or find an unused barn in the country to use as rehearsal space.

[bass106]

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

At least on my end, I'm totally taking it from another person's perspective. For sure the only complaint has come from a bitter, life hating, know it all armchair policeman; but if he is the only one being vocal about it, how many other people are not pleased but aren't speaking up.

I'm totally trying to be sensitive to the neighbors.

I hate to break it to you, your not being sensitive to the neighbour. It doesn't matter that he's some old guy, even though I can understand were your coming from. I would probably complain too, because I know wats it like to be doing something needs concerntration like studying and the last thing u want hear is that. Because your putting him out, why dont you go over there and see if you can work out times to rehearse that wouldn't bother him. Maybe's when he's out doing stuff and then it doesn't matter how loud u play. You didn't take it from anyones else's perspective but your own (maybe you should look up the word).

[E2daGGurl]

We do the 50 foot check every once in awhile (my band partner never trusts me - and I'm way louder than him, so out he goes into the street). We're playing pretty loud - loud enough, I'd say, but we have our cabs faced into the back of the house/property and it's surprising how little sound escapes.

Fortunately for us, the nearest neighbor lives more than 50 feet away, so there's that.

Turn it down, though, if it can be heard 50 feet outside - it's just that simple.

[warwick.hoy]

Originally Posted by bass106

I hate to break it to you, your not being sensitive to the neighbour. It doesn't matter that he's some old guy, even though I can understand were your coming from. I would probably complain too, because I know wats it like to be doing something needs concerntration like studying and the last thing u want hear is that. Because your putting him out, why dont you go over there and see if you can work out times to rehearse that wouldn't bother him. Maybe's when he's out doing stuff and then it doesn't matter how loud u play. You didn't take it from anyones else's perspective but your own (maybe you should look up the word).

I have to disagree. We have the blessing of the surrounding neighbors. We abide by their wishes to be finished up by 9pm. We also abide by their wishes to not rehearse during the children's nap time. We have received only compliments from everyone except this guy. We have yet to rehearse in our space since this guy formally complained to the landlord. We are leaving this space. Considering that most people would have told him to go eff himself, I'd say we are being quite sensitive to the situation. No matter as we are in the process of securing a more appropriate rehearsal space.

Perspective? After a little research I figured out who I was dealing with. I knew it in the back of my head, but had to confirm it. After searching the interwebs my suspicion was confirmed. Without getting into slandering the guy; I won't mention his name, but he is a local celebrity, there is no working around this guy. My family has had to deal with him before. He is a known web troll on local newspaper blogs. He is a coward who hides behind the law but fails to abide by it. He has violated the law and his parole by bullying people on blogs and on CL, yet he is the first person to go to the law when something isn't going his way. Granted he has every right to go to the law but I seriously doubt he has to study, or concentrate on anything. He is just trying to use the law to ruin other peoples enjoyment of life. I know who this guy is. So if that means seeing it from the perspective of a hypocrite and a snitch, I'd say that I've hit the nail on the head. This guy doesn't deserve a perspective.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Jeb

So you're still there? Do I stand corrected? Nice job. But one persistent neighbor is all it takes, whether you stop by 10 or not. Try and put this into perspective.

There was a thread awhile back that I got involved in because the notion was that bar owners shouldn't be able to allow smoking IN THEIR OWN ESTABLISHMENT because some patrons might disapprove (even though these patrons could go somewhere else). I lost.

This is different because the encroachment is real. Try to think about this from a perspective other than your own.

I'm a working, rehearsing bass player, but even I wouldn't want a bunch of players (who think that they sound great) to encroach on my enjoyment of my own property. I would also make every effort to ensure that my endeavor didn't offend my neighbor. Can the forum understand that, or are we so enamored to the ME, ME, ME way of thinking?

I know you are talking to all of us, but in my case I do worry about pissing off the neighbors. I like my neighbors. But, it is also my house and I feel I should, within reason, be able to play with my band in the garage.

Keep in mind that I have a generous lot, so the houses aren't right up against each other like in the city.

Another issue is the cost of a practice space rental. A decent one is going to run 300+ a month, which is not affordable when you are already paying a mortgage and other bills on top of that.

But, ya we are still practicing in our gargage with no problems. Since we moved the way our speakers face, that is enough to keep the sound from escaping badly.

[mrokern]

Your house or not, you do not get to interfere with another person's enjoyment of their property. Period, exclamation point, and that's how the law will see it.

Things may change if you are in a communal environment (e.g. apartment building), where some ambient noise is to be expected within reason...but when someone has paid good money for their home and property, you don't get to screw that up. You can go inside and play in your basement. They don't have to go hide in theirs.

I can sympathize, I wish I could play loudly myself...but I practice at home through headphones. I'm in an apartment, and I don't have the right to blow my neighbors out of their living rooms. My stack stays at the rehearsal space.

This is not a difficult thing to comprehend, but apparently the mememememememe culture is getting worse.

-Mark

[warwick.hoy]

Originally Posted by mrokern

Your house or not, you do not get to interfere with another person's enjoyment of their property. Period, exclamation point, and that's how the law will see it.

Things may change if you are in a communal environment (e.g. apartment building), where some ambient noise is to be expected within reason...but when someone has paid good money for their home and property, you don't get to screw that up. You can go inside and play in your basement. They don't have to go hide in theirs.

I can sympathize, I wish I could play loudly myself...but I practice at home through headphones. I'm in an apartment, and I don't have the right to blow my neighbors out of their living rooms. My stack stays at the rehearsal space.

This is not a difficult thing to comprehend, but apparently the mememememememe culture is getting worse.

-Mark

Respectfully; If this is directed towards me I think you are not comprehending what I am saying. This guy got his wish. We are no longer rehearsing on said premises. He; who is the only one complaining, can now enjoy his property. We have no intention on continuing infringement upon the enjoyment of his property; although I think this guy is so dissatisfied with his life that it is only a matter of time before he has something new to complain about; by which time me and my band will have long since vacated the premises.

I have read the ordinance. I know that we are betraying the law. I know that the law will not be on our side concerning this, but at the same time the person seeking to uphold that law has no respect for it (see my previous post).

We are trying to go about this in the most professional way we know how. What are we supposed to do; not rehearse? That isn't an option. As for at home practice (I live in an apartment as well)....yeah, I use a little 30 watt practice amp and keep at a reasonable volume and do not play after 10pm. So far, so good.

We have a few leads on more appropriate rehearsal spaces in industrial parts of town, where we hopefully will not be bothering anyone. If that is "mememememememe" mentality going on here, then I guess I just have to accept that.

If not directed towards me; my apologies

[mrokern]

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

Respectfully; If this is directed towards me I think you are not comprehending what I am saying. This guy got his wish. We are no longer rehearsing on said premises. He; who is the only one complaining, can now enjoy his property. We have no intention on continuing infringement upon the enjoyment of his property; although I think this guy is so dissatisfied with his life that it is only a matter of time before he has something new to complain about; by which time me and my band will have long since vacated the premises.

I have read the ordinance. I know that we are betraying the law. I know that the law will not be on our side concerning this, but at the same time the person seeking to uphold that law has no respect for it (see my previous post).

We are trying to go about this in the most professional way we know how. What are we supposed to do; not rehearse? That isn't an option. As for at home practice (I live in an apartment as well)....yeah, I use a little 30 watt practice amp and keep at a reasonable volume and do not play after 10pm. So far, so good.

We have a few leads on more appropriate rehearsal spaces in industrial parts of town, where we hopefully will not be bothering anyone. If that is "mememememememe" mentality going on here, then I guess I just have to accept that.

If not directed towards me; my apologies

Not directed at your specific situation, more at a general feel I was getting from the direction of the thread from multiple folks. Wasn't getting the memememememe vibe from you.

You seem to be taking the right steps. It stinks, I'll agree...but sometimes there just isn't an easy way around it. I've had neighbors who could find something to complain about even if they'd just won the lottery, and while I wish I could just treat them back the same way, I've got to wait for karma to do its job.

-Mark

[warwick.hoy]

Originally Posted by mrokern

Not directed at your specific situation, more at a general feel I was getting from the direction of the thread from multiple folks. Wasn't getting the memememememe vibe from you.

You seem to be taking the right steps. It stinks, I'll agree...but sometimes there just isn't an easy way around it. I've had neighbors who could find something to complain about even if they'd just won the lottery, and while I wish I could just treat them back the same way, I've got to wait for karma to do its job.

-Mark

She is a cruel mistress isn't she and that is what we are waiting for. This guy has crossed so many people in this town that it is only a matter of time.

Thanks for not taking it the wrong way.

~James

[Stumbo]

Wherever you end up rehearsing, surrounding the drummer with sound board (double thick) will decrease the his/her volume substantially (especially if it's cymbal high), allowing the other band members to turn down and hear each other better, all at the same time.

We used to fill the garage framing/garage door with carpet padding and then cover all the walls with carpet. Not exactly "sound proof" but it did a good enough job that no one ever complained. We had carpet on the floor as well.

Put the amps/pa cabs at ear level, get the guitar player an attenuator if he/she has a tube amp and go from there. Also, carpet can be hung over the front of the cabs to reduce the volume. Maybe everyone going DI would do it as well.

[Lorenzini]

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

Thanks for the advice guys. I like it loud but we will discuss muting the drums and turning down. Perhaps turning down will help with gear wear and tear. I have yet to find a suitable rehearsal space.

I would recommend getting a plexiglass folding "wall" that goes around the drummer.

[Hawaii Islander]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Wherever you end up rehearsing, surrounding the drummer with sound board (double thick) will decrease the his/her volume substantially (especially if it's cymbal high), allowing the other band members to turn down and hear each other better, all at the same time.

We used to fill the garage framing/garage door with carpet padding and then cover all the walls with carpet. Not exactly "sound proof" but it did a good enough job that no one ever complained. We had carpet on the floor as well.

Put the amps/pa cabs at ear level, get the guitar player an attenuator if he/she has a tube amp and go from there. Also, carpet can be hung over the front of the cabs to reduce the volume. Maybe everyone going DI would do it as well.

+1

A friend of mine in Germany had noise problems at a rented practice space. The neighboring space was being used by a very loud metal band that interfered with their rehersals (Indie Pop stuff). I suggested hanging heavy drape (stage curtain type material a few inches from the offending wall. They tried it and it was just enough noise reduction to allow both bands to practice without interfering with each other.

Dampening the sound levels rather than sound proofing is all that it should take and should be relatively cheap.