Need some MAJOR advice. I don't want to mess up the chance of a lifetime.

[AndGabrielFell]

I was just asked to record with a very well known hip-hop artist. Without dropping names here, he was a HUGE influence in the rock/rap crossover. I laid rough tracks down on Saturday & am returning to the studio this evening to record the actual song. This is my first real time in the studio with anyone of this magnitude. I have no experience whatsoever with management, legal representation, contract agreements, etc. I work in a call center for a payroll rep. My friends and I are pretty much writing the music for the song. I'm not sure if I should bring anything up regarding finances, credits, possibly joining to tour. I want to be able to use this as a break into the business, but I also want to handle myself professionally & not let my naivete shine through. For instance, it would really suck when I pick up the album & some well known studio guy gets my credit. I could use some major advice here.

[badstonebass]

Kind of too late to talk business. You should have ironed that out immediately after you were asked.

You already wrote him a song that he will use wether you are there or not and will be taking full credit.

I hope I am wrong for your sake but I suspect I will not be.

The next time someone "BIG" asks you to play ask them about the business end quickly, not after you wrote them a song. You can do this without being a dick about it. just say: "What will the business arrangements be". Professionals are used to this and most will not get offended.

If they say "You are doing this for "experience" or "exposure" then you have a decision to make. Imagine this song is a big hit and makes millions(longshot I know)...how will you feel with "experience" as your paycheck.

I would say to the artist: "RapGuy, I really appreciate this chance to work with you, however in the excitement we never ironed out the business side". He may give you nothing. He might offer you a lump sum for the session. At the VERY least I woud try and get a writing credit. At least with a credit you can use it to further your career.

Be prepared though...he might just tell you to *&%& off.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by AndGabrielFell

also want to handle myself professionally & not let my naivete shine through.

As tough as it is to say or hear, I think that ship has sailed.

It's my understanding that very little get's done at that level that doesn't involve AFM players including Demos.

Admitedly I know nothing at all about the Rap game but, I know you don't get squat in Nashville without an AFM card.

In any case, the first words out of your mouth should have been, "I'll need scale" or at the very least, "What's the paycheck?"

IMHO

On the bright side, I doubt anyone is going to "release" anything that doesn't have AFM sanction. So, I doubt you need to worry about loosing your credit.

[MikeBass]

Grab copy of session sheets if you can .
Usually guys don't blink when you do- not uncommon for session guys to ask, need to keep records of where you were, session with who, scale etc....
And it's never to late to ask about the credit issues......"I AM getting a credit for this right?!?" said in the right tone and at the right time can yeild positive results.

Then grab his manager and get it in writing.

Good luck and let us know how it plays out.

I've heard quite a few guys here in Detroit talk about how they laid tracks, came up with beats etc... on D12's/Eminem's (for example) latest disc and they are as broke as anyone else walking around in Guitar Center.

[Music Attorney]

Originally Posted by AndGabrielFell

I was just asked to record with a very well known hip-hop artist. Without dropping names here, he was a HUGE influence in the rock/rap crossover. I laid rough tracks down on Saturday & am returning to the studio this evening to record the actual song. This is my first real time in the studio with anyone of this magnitude. I have no experience whatsoever with management, legal representation, contract agreements, etc. I work in a call center for a payroll rep. My friends and I are pretty much writing the music for the song. I'm not sure if I should bring anything up regarding finances, credits, possibly joining to tour. I want to be able to use this as a break into the business, but I also want to handle myself professionally & not let my naivete shine through. For instance, it would really suck when I pick up the album & some well known studio guy gets my credit. I could use some major advice here.

I think the advice you need depends on what you want out of this situation. If you’re not sure what your goals are, then at least know what your options are.

First, there’s already been a ton of posts (some by me) regarding when you are legally entitled to copyright ownership in a song (or portion thereof) as a joint author. Assuming you are legally entitled to a copyright interest in the song, then that right doesn’t go away unless you assign your rights to someone else. There’s really nothing you have to do right at the moment regarding this point. If it was a case where you had written most of the song and the rapper contributed a small portion to the song, then you might want to get the writer splits in writing between the two parties. Otherwise, absent that writing, the law would grant 50/50 ownership of the song between the two parties which would mean you’d get hosed for a large percentage of the song. With the number of writers it seems are involved, that doesn’t appear to be the case here.

As far as the recording, absent paperwork to the contrary, you are a co-owner of the recording and would be entitled to your share of money from the exploitation of that recording and you could license it to others if you wanted (with the same duty to account to the other copyright owners). To me, it would seem more advantageous in this situation to be a copyright owner, than a session player getting scale. The collective bargaining agreement that governs the AFM contains work-for-hire language such that players who record sessions pursuant to that agreement assign their rights in the recordings they play on to someone else.

It’s possible you could create the recording and then this guy goes in and recreates another version of the recording with other players, but that happens all the time in my world. Lesser known producers bring in tracks to the labels and the labels say “we love it, but we want to use our guy to produce it.” Some of those lesser known producers may say you can’t have the song unless I produce it, but that often doesn’t end up in a good result for newbies.

Also, it’s very common for my clients to work with others before there is any understanding of the finances, credit, etc. The creative process can be very fluid and who deserves what can change dramatically. I’ve seen plenty of projects blow apart because everyone was so focused on the business that the creative process never happened and I firmly believe that the business part would have worked out if the parties had just created something they were both happy with. I realize that the approach I’m suggesting has its risks and there are definitely times I tell clients, depending on who the party is, not to step foot into the studio without a clear understanding of the business terms.

Unless there are more facts I’m not aware of or specific goals you have in mind for this situation, I think you’re in pretty good shape overall. I’d relax and enjoy the experience. Given the lottery-type odds that this one track will be a huge hit, I would focus on allowing this situation to help your career move forward rather than trying to squeeze it for every dime. And even assuming you hit the lottery, if you don’t sign anything to the contrary, you’re still in a position to claim some portion of the money from the song and/or recording.

Best,
MA

[AndGabrielFell]

That's some awesome advice. I was in the studio last night for laying down the drum tracks. The artist wasn't there so I didn't get a chance to bring anything up. I did discuss my concerns with the guitar player who is on the same page with me. We're both day jobbers who are looking to get more involved in the music industry, so we're all learning as we go. Pretty much what I'm looking for from this experience is to be my way in to get exposed to further recording/session work with tours here and there eventually being able to comfortably support myself financially through music services. If anyone else has advice as well, please, let me know.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by Steve

As tough as it is to say or hear, I think that ship has sailed.

It's my understanding that very little get's done at that level that doesn't involve AFM players including Demos.

Admitedly I know nothing at all about the Rap game but, I know you don't get squat in Nashville without an AFM card.

In any case, the first words out of your mouth should have been, "I'll need scale" or at the very least, "What's the paycheck?"

IMHO

On the bright side, I doubt anyone is going to "release" anything that doesn't have AFM sanction. So, I doubt you need to worry about loosing your credit.

Actually, the whole game is changing in regards to the AFofM and record labels. You're right that the major labels are going to involve the union on the vast majority of sessions that they are paying for. Unfortunately, the AFM is notoriously weak & and, as a result many, many non-card musicians play on those sessions & still pick up their check at the union office. It has actually gotten to the point where the AFM has a set percentage they deduct from non-union members' checks as a "handling fee".

The other side of the coin is that more & more artists are opting out of traditional record deals. This means that the union has pretty much zero jurisdiction with these "independent" labels. For successful artists, the "major" distribution companies pick up their "independent" releases for distribution and sales anyway - without regard to AFM agreements with signatory labels.

The music biz is changing every week. More & more guys like the op are finding great opportunities (I think this is a good thing). But, as the dinosaurs of the industry (major labels, unions, RIAA, etc...) continue to loose market share, musicians and artists have to be sure to protect their own interests wile still being able to collaborate with each other fairly. It's not easy, and the set-rules keep breaking down.

Bottom line:
a) Don't work for free or "spec". You rarely get rewarded in these situations & you undercut the folks who already rely on the work to eat!
b) Agree on general terms before you work. Especially with creative intellectual property! The hip-hop/urban genre is notorious for the number of writers involved & there are often a lot of conflicts after the fact.
c) Be flexible. There is no standard rate or percentage anymore. As a rule of thumb, if you aren't satisfied with the compensation - don't take the job!
d) In cases where you find yourself trying to establish the above after the fact, count on the better lawyer prevailing. Sorry. (I've been on both ends of this stick, chalk it up to live and learn...)

[scotch]

Originally Posted by AndGabrielFell

That's some awesome advice. I was in the studio last night for laying down the drum tracks. The artist wasn't there so I didn't get a chance to bring anything up. I did discuss my concerns with the guitar player who is on the same page with me. We're both day jobbers who are looking to get more involved in the music industry, so we're all learning as we go. Pretty much what I'm looking for from this experience is to be my way in to get exposed to further recording/session work with tours here and there eventually being able to comfortably support myself financially through music services. If anyone else has advice as well, please, let me know.

It's good that you are getting your foot in the door. Even if you do get screwed on this deal, make sure you develop a reputation for being enjoyable to work with. If you focus too much on "Business" and not enough on the music and relationships - you'll get forgotten fast!

That said, I hope this works out! Better than half of the people I've worked with over the years have been honest & professional. The relatively few times I have gotten screwed have just made me smarter about handling the next situation....

Look out for yourself, but don't burn any bridges.

[bassman314]

Originally Posted by scotch

Look out for yourself, but don't burn any bridges.

The ass you are kicking today may be the ass you are kissing tomorrow.