New band advise..

[tanslacks]

I am currently playing in a rock band with great friends. We gig several times a month and have a small but loyal following. We do a mixture of covers and originals. I am lucky because I work with a rock steady drummer. I never worry about the count, we hook up great.

So here is the dilema. This is the only band I have played with, 15 years now. Last week I was asked to form a band behind a very young and talented singer songwriter. She can sing and write, great stuff and great voice.

So a drummer and I joined her last week to see how things would go. we are just going to back her up, nothing showy, she plays guitar. I did not get any chord charts, instead I got lyric sheets with the chords wriiten over the lyrics. Like I said, she can write, sing and never sings the songs the same way twice. She tends to over strum and changes chords on different counts with no consistancy. I don't know the drummer and he seems pretty easy just playing a soft alt/country folk thing. I am having more trouble because I can't find the groove of her songs, with all the speed and strumming changes.

I want to help, but I am not sure critacism will be welcome. Have any of you had an experience like this? and how did you handle it?

[Fnord Explorer]

Sounds like she hasn't done ensemble work before. I know a lot of singer-songwriter types who played by themselves for years and they naturally seem to have this weird timing sense about them that works just fine on their own but doesn't jive with an ensemble. It also sounds like she has timing issues because she's probably concentrating a lot more on singing than her guitar playing.

I would gently and tactfully suggest maybe adding another guitarist so she can focus on her strong point more. The three of you (including the new guitarist) will probably sonically force her either to conform to the time or she will drop out of playing guitar altogether, especially if you sound good and tight. She won't want to mess with the formula and she might ease up on her guitar playing.

[tanslacks]

you seem to understand exactly what is going on. A second guitarist would greatly help. I'll see what happens at the next rehersal.

[bassplayinggirl]

Our folky singer/guitar player is the same, but his sense of ensemble has improved since we've been a band.

He still can't count, though.

[Entre Nous 2007]

it's on you and the drummer to get the proper tempo/counts... if she's not amendable to that then stick with your primary group as she sounds like some open mic dorkette who's used to playing things "her own way."

[fenderx55]

It may help to come up with some melodic riffs that mesh with her vocals, she'll have something to follow with her voice and have to think about it less. Also, give her some time to get used to playing with an ensemble, takes a little time. I used to hang out with a bunch of singer/songwriter ppl and they really did have a different sense of timing, but it was usually pretty interesting.

[sixtwofour]

Sounds like a typical person that's never played with a metronome before.

The best way to fix this is to record you all playing together so she can hear the problem. Explain that she needs to settle on an arrangement, you can't just freely follow her as she changes things around. You don't need another guitar player yet.

Once you show her the problem, see if she can change (which I expect she won't). If she can't, then don't bother hanging around.

Bands that can't count just sound lost and sloppy.

Good luck!

[Jimmyplaysabass]

listen for the changes, hold fat roots. that should be all she needs

[tZer]

Originally Posted by Jimmyplaysabass

listen for the changes, hold fat roots. that should be all she needs

That would work well IF she were consistent in her chord changes.

But he said that she tends to "rewrite" her changes ad hoc - which makes it almost impossible for a bass player to "hold fat roots". If she had a CMaj chord on the 2nd beat of measure 2 yesterday, but then chose to relocate that chord to beat 1 of measure three today - him holding a fat C at beat 2 of 2 would not work any longer.

TO THE OP:
It will probably require more work on your part than you originally anticipated. I too am in the same boat. I have a very young, very talented singer/songwriter that I am going to be working with who has little or not ensemble experience. Give her a guitar/piano and let her go on her own - sounds great! Start trying to play with her and suddenly you recognize that from phrase to phrase, verse to verse, chorus to chorus - no two are executed the same way twice.

When I HAVE to work with that, I choose to play in the "bigger key" - whatever the overall song's key is - and work melodic lines that will hold down roots when possible, but will also provide good chord tones when the roots start to float.

But if you are really interested in backing her and no one else is stepping up to help acquaint her with the realities of ensemble playing - that she must try to stick to some level of consistency with what she plays if she wants other players to be able to back her effectively - then it may be on you to set up some side sessions with her and start helping her nailing these things down.

My comment to the girl's dad who I am working with was that IF he (and she) feel that her ambiguous chord changes and loose structure is something they feel she needs to do as part of her identity, she needs to perform mostly solo. Her, her guitar and a mic. That way she can be as loose and free with the changes and phrasing as she wants. But if he and she feel it's important to have a backing band, there has to be a shared understanding of the structures.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by tZer

...IF he (and she) feel that her ambiguous chord changes and loose structure is something they feel she needs to do as part of her identity, she needs to perform mostly solo. Her, her guitar and a mic. That way she can be as loose and free with the changes and phrasing as she wants. But if he and she feel it's important to have a backing band, there has to be a shared understanding of the structures.

+1 - this message delivered with sensitivity and patience should help.

[Spinal Tapper]

Originally Posted by tanslacks

So a drummer and I joined her last week to see how things would go. we are just going to back her up, nothing showy, she plays guitar. I did not get any chord charts, instead I got lyric sheets with the chords wriiten over the lyrics. Like I said, she can write, sing and never sings the songs the same way twice. She tends to over strum and changes chords on different counts with no consistancy. I don't know the drummer and he seems pretty easy just playing a soft alt/country folk thing. I am having more trouble because I can't find the groove of her songs, with all the speed and strumming changes.

I want to help, but I am not sure critacism will be welcome. Have any of you had an experience like this? and how did you handle it?

I've been through an incredibly similar situation once before. Similar style of music, even. Very inconsistent, never practiced by herself to improve for rehearsals...I got tired of her crap and quit the project after a few months. She was always changing the ways songs go, couldn't hang with anyone more than a freestyle bongo player as far as a band goes. It was a disaster from the start.

As gorgeous this girl was, and as pretty as she sang, she couldn't lead a band whatsoever. I think it worked out better for everyone that she continue on by herself anyways. In that situation, all you'll ever be is a backup musician for her.

Whatever you do, don't quit your "day-band".

[BillyRay]

I've payed most of my car bills backing people like this: you are lucky, you have a drummer. Most of the times, I had only keys or another guitarist to make the groove.

A lot of those strum singers don't have a strong sense of rythmn, not because they don't practice, since many of them gig/record 95% more than a lot of bass players with 5k of gear (at least here, singer with guitar equals 80% of them available bar gigs). No, it's because they are so used to making due with what they have, mainly a great voice and ok to good guitar skills. This means that they have to arrange pretty much every song they perform or write to fit sonically within these limitations: I've seen a particular girl arrange several AC/DC tunes for a rock-oriented set and it was an interesting experience.

You couldn't hear the original bass/drum pulse though the song, the overall melody had been changed and most chord progressiosn were simplified or abandonned altogheter in favor of something that would compliment her voice better. The songs rocked anyway, but when she aksed me and a drummer to gig with her because a bar needed a real rock act, we had to go back to the original arrangements: we just couldn't get it tight and good. The new feeling was alien to drum and bass, just as tuba would be in an hairmetal setting ! But with the back beat and pulse that drum + bass gave to the song, she sang it just fine.

So yeah, in your case, if you already have a drummer, another guitar player or a fantstic key player that can double on guitar would be the best scenario (can you double on guitar for some songs***?). But remember that in gigs like this, you are there to make HER sound good first and foremost since she'll be the marketing point to club owners/fans. Once you let go and go with the flow (and she gets a sense of timing with other musicians) this is a strangely liberating feeling, being there to make others sound great.

*** I know, I know, travesty, but sometimes, in such settings, having a great rythmn player can be worth his weight in gold, moreso than a bassist I'm afraid.

[BillyRay]

Also, another good idea that I've seen people employ from time to time is to record a "scratch" track with only drum and bass over every song with only her singing, that way she can nail the chord changes at ease on her own.

But it really sounds, when I reread the post, that she is not very good at guitar and mainly concentrate on singing.

Originally Posted by tZer View Post
...IF he (and she) feel that her ambiguous chord changes and loose structure is something they feel she needs to do as part of her identity, she needs to perform mostly solo. Her, her guitar and a mic. That way she can be as loose and free with the changes and phrasing as she wants. But if he and she feel it's important to have a backing band, there has to be a shared understanding of the structures.

+100, I've had to go that route exactly once and it went well. Not pretty, but well. Expect high cries about "artistic freedom" and "my own voice", but it should be fine if you approach her with tact.