New band with drum machine,need advice.

change-jug · #1 06-06-2010, 10:24 AM

I was wondering if you guys could help me out here. Me and my 2 friends are "starting" a new band.This is only the second band I`ve been in(both me and the guitarist played together in our 1st band) and the first time for our singer/guitarist,keys,programmer. Going into this I knew that our keys/singer/guitarist didn`t want a drummer and wanted the group to be only 3 players. At first I was cool with that because I liked the idea of having a mix of "techno" beats,standard drum sounds and crazy synth lines to groove along to. But in reality it`s been a lot harder to write songs without a drummer.
Without a drummer to lay down a beat it`s a bit more difficult to come up with some bass lines. The first few practices were frustrating. It would go something like this: both of the other guys would crank their amps way louder than necessary,then our multi-guy would play his Z-tar(a midi trigger kinda thing) and trigger all these crazy awesome sounds but it wasn`t real conducive to jamming out a song. It was like trying to jam with a rave. Seriously.
So after some talking we decided to have him put away the bells and whistles and just play the guitar while trying to come up with a song then go back and layer the electronics over what we had come up with. We were able to come up with bits and pieces of songs way easier and quicker this way. but now I have a new problem. Playing along with 2 guitar players and no drummer feels lacking. To me there`s just not that spark of energy that you get with a drummer and I`m holding down the rhythm by myself. So we had another talk(I`m glad that everyone is so easy to get along with and open minded) and the next time we got together he had about 6 varied drum tracks ready. Having those tracks gave me a ton of inspiration and we had the most productive and fun practice to date. But(there`s always a but),they were pretty basic tracks that just repeated with no breaks or change ups which made deviating from the first bass line into something new kind of hard for me.
I`m totally thrilled to be back making music with my friends after 6 years of playing in my bedroom and having a second chance to rock out in front of some people. But this whole no drummer thing is throwing me off. Has any one been in a similar situation? How did you make it work? Did you have problems at first or was it smooth sailing? Any advice would be so helpful to me. I want to make this work and I don`t want to hold back the band in any way. Thanks!

M0ses · #2 06-06-2010, 10:28 AM

Get a drummer. No one will be fooled by a machine.

change-jug · #3 06-06-2010, 10:44 AM

I don`t know why my buddy has such a aversion towards drummers. Although I do remember him saying " I don`t want to deal with d-bag drummers that can`t keep time and another member in the band will just make getting together that much harder." I think that`s a ironic thing to say as we practice only once a week and miss a practice about once a month. It`s slow going thus far. But I`m still happy to be doing something!

M0ses · #4 06-06-2010, 10:48 AM

If that's his reasoning, why doesn't he just skip the bassist, too? To start a band, you have to deal with people. If you don't want to deal with people, then you have to be a solo act, or record everything yourself in your basement.

IMO I have never heard a machine that sounded anything like a good drummer, or anywhere near as good as a good drummer. There's no way I'd ever use one. I don't even like electronic kits at all, either.

etoncrow · #5 06-06-2010, 10:53 AM

I am using a Zoom MRT-3B drum machine which is programmable with very good results. I trigger start/stop with a Boss FS-5U pedal. I have been a drummer for 50 years and you can pretty much get anything you might want with this machine. You can sample stock beats and kits or use the pads to load your own rhythms then combine them measure by measure. Its not as tedious as it might sound. Plus the machine shows up on time at every practice and stays out of my beer. Another thing, yeah it does not sound quite as good as a live kit with a good drummer but you do not split the pay with it and do you really think anyone who heard you play will remember the difference in the drum sound the next morning?

Lurker79 · #6 06-06-2010, 10:55 AM

You have three choices. Find a drummer, a good one. Get ableton live or another daw and actually make some electronic music, or play by yourself. My old bass teacher is That 1 Guy (electro one man band he is amazing), so doing your own thing by yourself may actually work out really well for you.

ptolemny · #7 06-06-2010, 10:58 AM

I actually did a similar thing with a buddy. We we're trying to a driving, hard pop sort of thing and couldn't find a good drummer (too busy on the kit or just awful) and were getting bummed. I had been using a drum machine to do 4-track stuff, so I suggested plugging the drum machine into the PA; I used the most natural sounding "rock" kit on the machine. Pros: Did exactly what I told it to do, never late/missing practices, metronomic timing and solid consistency (I think this helped my timing). Cons: No creative ability at all (i.e., no impromptu jams at practice - all material must be worked out in advance), no personality, and generally poor sound in comparison to an actual drum kit. We did a gig with the dm and it was ok. We got a real drummer shortly after and, although I liked being able to jam with a real person, I missed the rock solid timing of the drum machine. I think you, as bassist, should learn to use the drum machine and be in charge of it so you can create drum parts that best compliment your basslines, but even the best drum machine is a poor substitute for a good drummer.

Rilander · #8 06-06-2010, 11:00 AM

http://www.myspace.com/theneverwasbeen

i play bass at a buddies sometimes just for fun and we play with a drum program. i just plug my bass straight in to the comp and we play along with the drum lines. i think it's close to "real" kinda lol

change-jug · #9 06-06-2010, 11:25 AM

Thanks for the advice guys! Maybe I should talk to my buddy and see if he would be willing to part with the drum machine and let me take over that duty. He did mention to me one night while out drinking that he was stressing out about his responsibilities with laying drums,writing and singing,playing keys and being the second guitarist. I bet he wouldn`t mind cutting down that list. Keep the good ideas coming!

tycobb73 · #10 06-06-2010, 11:42 AM

My wfie and I went and saw a band that was using a drum machine. AFter half a song she said "Let's go, the drummer's part of the show and it's not nearly as entertaining without one."

grisezd · #11 06-06-2010, 06:40 PM

I saw Jesus and Mary Chain twice, once with drummer, once with a wedge monitor facing the crowd where the drummer would have been, and a drum machine that was very popular at the time. I preferred them with the machine. I love the sound of that machine. I was certianly not fooled. The Cure used it, and I think that might be the one Big Black used. Big Black slayed without a drummer. One thing Steve Albini did to keep things interesting in Big Black is to start and stop the machine during the song with a stomp switch and got a lot of dynamics that way.

Thing is, if it's just some rock and roll and the machine is replacing a person, it's going to suck. If it's something interesting written with the machine in mind it can be great.

change-jug · #12 06-07-2010, 01:57 PM

You make a pretty good point grisezd about what we should do with the drum machine. We are trying to go for something different and unique. I saw Genghis Tron a while back and they use a drum machine and for only being three dudes(2 of which are rocking key boards) it was one of the most intense shows I`ve been witness to. I know we`re using a Korg but I`m not sure what model. I`ll have to find out if it can use a foot switch. I never even though of that,but it`s a super cool idea!

Floridabwoy · #13 06-07-2010, 02:02 PM

First, you are defo not doing anything unique.... go listen to some 80's music, or steely dan. Drum Machine.

I love using a drum machine for writing, actually I use Ableton a lot with writing. You just need to learn how to program a sequencer. Find a beat and a bassline that works well and write the other parts around it. Or opposite, get your hook and write the drums and bassline around it.

Also, if you are using a Korg it is probably and electribe. That isnt going to work for you because you cant trigger changes on the fly without a DAW or some kind of MIDI. Turning a wheel isnt probably going to work in a live situation. I would seriously look into a laptop and a program like ableton, go listen to some Sound Tribe Sector 9, and get some idea's.

ric stave · #14 06-07-2010, 02:06 PM

I'd say don't use the drum machine to try to 'replace' a 'real' drummer, but create music that uses some of the strengths and unique things that can be done with a computer driven drum/percussion track. Take it, mess with it, come up with some creativr beats that a real person couldn't possibly play and write some songs around it.

I'd love to see the group when it's out (I'm in Buffalo too)

~ric

rtslinger · #15 06-07-2010, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by change-jug

I was wondering if you guys could help me out here. Me and my 2 friends are "starting" a new band.This is only the second band I`ve been in(both me and the guitarist played together in our 1st band) and the first time for our singer/guitarist,keys,programmer. Going into this I knew that our keys/singer/guitarist didn`t want a drummer and wanted the group to be only 3 players. At first I was cool with that because I liked the idea of having a mix of "techno" beats,standard drum sounds and crazy synth lines to groove along to. But in reality it`s been a lot harder to write songs without a drummer.
Without a drummer to lay down a beat it`s a bit more difficult to come up with some bass lines. The first few practices were frustrating. It would go something like this: both of the other guys would crank their amps way louder than necessary,then our multi-guy would play his Z-tar(a midi trigger kinda thing) and trigger all these crazy awesome sounds but it wasn`t real conducive to jamming out a song. It was like trying to jam with a rave. Seriously.
So after some talking we decided to have him put away the bells and whistles and just play the guitar while trying to come up with a song then go back and layer the electronics over what we had come up with. We were able to come up with bits and pieces of songs way easier and quicker this way. but now I have a new problem. Playing along with 2 guitar players and no drummer feels lacking. To me there`s just not that spark of energy that you get with a drummer and I`m holding down the rhythm by myself. So we had another talk(I`m glad that everyone is so easy to get along with and open minded) and the next time we got together he had about 6 varied drum tracks ready. Having those tracks gave me a ton of inspiration and we had the most productive and fun practice to date. But(there`s always a but),they were pretty basic tracks that just repeated with no breaks or change ups which made deviating from the first bass line into something new kind of hard for me.
I`m totally thrilled to be back making music with my friends after 6 years of playing in my bedroom and having a second chance to rock out in front of some people. But this whole no drummer thing is throwing me off. Has any one been in a similar situation? How did you make it work? Did you have problems at first or was it smooth sailing? Any advice would be so helpful to me. I want to make this work and I don`t want to hold back the band in any way. Thanks!

Get a drummer nothing like the energy you are going to get from a living breathing drummer rocking the bottom with you! If you can't find one? Do with a drum machine till you do or do the shows with no drummer just a click track in the monitors so you know where you are. drum machines are acceptable in music today so I do not think it is a question of fooling the crowd but, just till you find a good drummer

D.A.R.K. · #16 06-07-2010, 03:21 PM

drummers and programming are two different things.
one does not replace the other.
good programming can give you options a live drummer never can, and vice versa.
i do both regularly, and love to do both.
it is inspiring to play with great live musicians, but i've learned to write
by myself.
it's just preferences, so ignore the "better than" debate because it will never end. just decide what you prefer for yourself.

shadow_FIX · #17 06-07-2010, 03:45 PM

Like everyone else said.

Get a real drummer!

ric stave · #18 06-07-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadow_FIX

Like everyone else said.

Get a real drummer!

That's not what everyone else said.

jefwho · #19 06-07-2010, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

drummers and programming are two different things.
one does not replace the other.
good programming can give you options a live drummer never can, and vice versa.
i do both regularly, and love to do both.
it is inspiring to play with great live musicians, but i've learned to write
by myself.
it's just preferences, so ignore the "better than" debate because it will never end. just decide what you prefer for yourself.

what this guy said.

change-jug · #20 06-08-2010, 04:37 PM

It would be great if I had the cash to buy a laptop and run some programs on it but I`m pretty much tapped out for the next few months(which sucks). So far,I think the best advice(and for me the most workable) I`ve heard is to see about taking over(or sharing) the drum machine duties. I think being the one to make the beats would be extremely helpful in writing bass lines.