The new business model

D1on · #1 07-25-2011, 10:54 AM

After reading this thread

STOP BIT TORRENT SOFTWARE NOW!

I curious what you have tried and or what model you are using to get your music out and make some gain from it?

What's working?

**TRichardsbass** · #2 07-25-2011, 12:59 PM

I won't usurp this, but I will be reading/listening/watching. I'd like to see what people have come up with as well.

byronkowalski · #3 07-25-2011, 01:07 PM

i believe in the trent reznor approach

Trent Reznor Continues Business Model Experiments: Releases Latest Album Online | Techdirt

Trent Reznor: 'So you want to make money on the Web' | The Open Road - CNET News

**TRichardsbass** · #4 07-25-2011, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by byronkowalski

i believe in the trent reznor approach

Trent Reznor Continues Business Model Experiments: Releases Latest Album Online | Techdirt

Trent Reznor: 'So you want to make money on the Web' | The Open Road - CNET News

Interesting read, and again, while dated, does not really address the problem. In the articles it notes that Trent tried the "free" thing and was "disheartened" that it didn't drive actual sales.

Also, note his business model is based on the "value added" extras. Hard good CD and DVD, both of which, by and large just three years from the article (it was written in 2008) are both quickly dying formats. Leaving only the ethereal web download.

Yes, $5 a pop for full download and a 40 page .pdf seem cheap enough, and I'd certainly go for it, IF I couldn't get it free. Since he's offering it DRM free, then one copy will spawn millions. Will he get enough people to buy that he will recoup his investment? Tough call. But one thing for sure, the article points out the struggle to make music and make it your livelihood with the way things are online today.

Also, Trent was one of the few and last artists to make their money in the biz the old fashioned way, with label support and CD and record sales. So, having money to start doesn't hurt. Oh, and I haven't really seen him tearing up the charts. Where has he gone? To movie and tv show sound tracks, where you get paid up front, and fortunately you still have some residuals with actual movie ticket sales.

Another thing with Trent is that while he won his lawsuit against his former manager, he signed the deal that included 20% of the gross, not net. He blamed it on drugs and alcohol. I wasn't surprised a jury awarded him $5M, but he was definitely at least 50% culpable. He signed the deal, and did, for many years, have addictions that curtailed his production as an artist.

I haven't really seen Trent try anything more "new" in business models. He gave away the last NIN record, and had 1.4M downloads. As far as I know that has never really created a ton of other revenue for him.

I like his attempts though. I also like these articles, because if you truly read them it shows Trent is not the independent, millionaire music mogul everyone touts him to be. Better at some things, but even he hasn't quite figured out how to turn free into $$$$$$l.

silky smoove · #5 07-25-2011, 05:10 PM

The new, the web 2.0, the [insert catchy title here], etc. is a pretty basic concept. Give your basic services away for free, and charge for the premium services. At this point it's hardly a new concept as it's been going that way for a long time on a lot of websites.

This leads me to two questions:
1. How do you correlate a web model to a music model, both recorded and live. Does it mean giving away your album, and charging people for shows, and merch at shows? Does it mean giving away your albums, putting on shows for free, and having them pay for some larger/grander/extravogant premium service?

2. Now that this concept is getting to be so common, what's going to be the next evolution? Web 3.0? Give away your basic, and premium services, and charge people for... something new that's not been considered? Come up with some entirely new model not based around the old, or the current new models at all?

All told, it's a very different world out there for musicians these days, even compared to 5 years ago. Go back 10 years and the landscape is completely different. 360 deals, the death of the CD, online EVERYTHING, home recordings that have the potential to sound professional, etc.

bolophonic · #6 07-25-2011, 08:41 PM

I pound the pavement and rely on word-of-mouth to drive people to our performances. This month we arranged an "artist-in-residence" with a local club and conducted a rehearsal and recording cycle onstage in a music venue that was open to the public. We had dozens and dozens of people show up just to watch us practice. One night, we had over 70 people show up on a Tuesday for this. The last thing I would ever do to try to make money off of this would be to sign a record contract.

**TRichardsbass** · #7 07-25-2011, 10:30 PM

Well, not sure if its the new business model, but I now found that begging is in vogue. A band in my state called Catch Wild used Kickstarter to fund their project. They want to record 6-7 songs and have a budget of $5K. Now there are 4 members, so that is $1250 each.

They started toward their goal a year ago. As of March, they had only raised among themselves $2000. So, each has only been able to earn and save $500 in just short of a year? Come on, if its your dream, wouldn't you work two jobs, or even sell some stuff to get what you need? I find it pathetic that after a year the band was unable to put together the bulk of the funding.

On with the story. So I get a FB message telling me they "need to make their first official album. PLEASE DONATE! On it was a link to the Kickstarter page, which is meant normally for guys who are starting a business to put out their projects and try to raise funding for it. There is no formula, but usually in return for your donation you get something or a perk.

Well Catch Wild was offering signed CDs and posters for the $1-$50 pledges, which I guess is okay. As they went up you got a song dedicated to you at a show, and if you donated $1500 you got an Executive Producer credit on the album jacket. No, you didn't get a percentage like the executive producer would, you just get your name there.

Long story short, they asked on Kickstarter for a goal of $3K, and they met it about on the last day due to a large donation (I'm thinking a relative).

Now, the concept is not necessarily bad, but it seems to me the business model they are using is beg and give nothing of value in return. Will work for them, but only once I'm sure.

I would gladly have donated larger money if there was a true backend for me in it. The risk of a band breaking with this album is slim. Most of my money would have been really at risk. So if I was willing to fund it, It would have been nice to get some reward commensurate of the risk. But they aren't and didn't offer that.

I am glad they have the money to make their record. I only hope they learn how to save money at some point.

I would gladly have donated if th

phatbass · #8 07-25-2011, 10:41 PM

Start charging for sex.

Most bands would probably net about the same amount...

Drop-the-One · #9 07-26-2011, 06:32 PM

I'm interested to see if "The Cloud" will solve this.

My prediction is people will still torrent, but upload it to the cloud... so the only thing really paid to musicians are royalties from the monthly cloud fee.

Youtube's probably cutting down pirating quite a bit. A band with 100 000 hits can make a few bucks off google advertising

Drop-the-One · #10 07-26-2011, 06:34 PM

Being personal and interactive on sites like Twitter is huge (if you use it)...

my last band's (small but supportive) all-ages crowd was from Twitter. and at our first all-ages show they came up with $10 bills in hand only to be disappointed we only had free demos LOL

A buddy band just got signed to 604 Records because of their twitter fanbase. All their twitter fans bought previous albums. That's a deadly combination in a good way

Drop-the-One · #11 07-26-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Well, not sure if its the new business model, but I now found that begging is in vogue. A band in my state called Catch Wild used Kickstarter to fund their project. They want to record 6-7 songs and have a budget of $5K. Now there are 4 members, so that is $1250 each.

They started toward their goal a year ago. As of March, they had only raised among themselves $2000. So, each has only been able to earn and save $500 in just short of a year? Come on, if its your dream, wouldn't you work two jobs, or even sell some stuff to get what you need? I find it pathetic that after a year the band was unable to put together the bulk of the funding.

On with the story. So I get a FB message telling me they "need to make their first official album. PLEASE DONATE! On it was a link to the Kickstarter page, which is meant normally for guys who are starting a business to put out their projects and try to raise funding for it. There is no formula, but usually in return for your donation you get something or a perk.

Well Catch Wild was offering signed CDs and posters for the $1-$50 pledges, which I guess is okay. As they went up you got a song dedicated to you at a show, and if you donated $1500 you got an Executive Producer credit on the album jacket. No, you didn't get a percentage like the executive producer would, you just get your name there.

Long story short, they asked on Kickstarter for a goal of $3K, and they met it about on the last day due to a large donation (I'm thinking a relative).

Now, the concept is not necessarily bad, but it seems to me the business model they are using is beg and give nothing of value in return. Will work for them, but only once I'm sure.

I would gladly have donated larger money if there was a true backend for me in it. The risk of a band breaking with this album is slim. Most of my money would have been really at risk. So if I was willing to fund it, It would have been nice to get some reward commensurate of the risk. But they aren't and didn't offer that.

I am glad they have the money to make their record. I only hope they learn how to save money at some point.

I would gladly have donated if th

That sounds like a couple things... You're right: they didn't think out the "prizes" at all. that isn't worth $1500. on CDbabypodcast.com allison weiss has a great interview on how to execute this.

also how much did they work on their fanbase? a small fanbase or one consisting of people who are just "supporting their friends" doesn't do much justice in getting pledges.

These are just my guesses though, I've never tried kickstarter

mattbass6945 · #12 07-26-2011, 08:14 PM

i've seen bands try the begging thing, and i was always turned off by that. i've always had the feeling that you should just go out there and kick butt, save cash and offer em' something (like merch.) of course there is capital needed for that too. i am just old school in my approach. just work for what you need and if people like it, you will succeed. maybe i'm just a dinosaur.........

Crazyeelboy · #13 08-15-2011, 11:22 PM

I love this begging for production funds and offering nothing I return as it is a perfect sign of our times on both sides of the industry. Listeners have now come to expect that they'll get music without offering anything in return (paying for it) and musicians are starting to expect to receive production funds for nothing. So, who's stuck holding the bag? Is the music industry moving toward a charity/patronage arrangement?

Waffles and Scotch · #14 08-16-2011, 06:38 AM

We're trying to figure this out as well. One of the bands we're friends with in this area was able to raise $5k for their first CD from donations, however they're a Christian metal band with a large following in some churches around the area, so that may just have been the niche they needed. Right now it looks like we'll be paying $5k-$8k for our first CD, and plan to save that money ourselves over the next year, but it'd be great to figure out a way to get contributions and give something of value back to those helping us out...

pklima · #15 08-16-2011, 07:32 AM

I'm going with the "have a real job and use music to boost your social life" business model. I honestly suspect it's the only model that will still be around in a few decades, other than "be from a rich family and don't need a real job".

I know it sounds kind of harsh, but I see that even the wedding band business, where you're getting paid decent money to give up all your weekends during the part of the year when the weather is nice, is shrinking thanks to DJs or even couples making up their own playlists.

Toptube · #16 08-16-2011, 08:34 AM

I don't make music to be sold or otherwise dispersed myself. But as a consumer, one of the things i appreciate greatly is the approach seen on sites like bandcamp.

Let me stream most of/the entire album in decent (usually 128kbs) quality. then if I think its mostly great, I can buy it right there, in any high quality format I want and often even opt to have a CD sent to me for a little extra. This gives me a clearly legal route through which to listen to your music. Especially if I'm not nearby enough to make it to a show. Whereas in the past a lot of legitimate minded people would go into the gray/illegal area of downloading albums to feel them out and then buy them later if they thought they were good. If I can't listen to your music, do you think I'm going to just happen to buy it for some magic reason?

Alternatively, if you also have your stuff up on Itunes or Amazon, but I've been able to do a complete preview of it at one of your sites, I can still at least buy the two or three songs that I really do want. People might balk at this but fact is that some bands just don't have very good complete albums. Other issues lie in the varying tastes form person to person. Your grungy blues rock song might sell well with one person, but the next guy might want the pop rock song. (PeeEss: I don't use Itunes at all. So make sure to get your stuff on Amazon, too.) Burger king will sell a whopper without pickles or onions, and so should you allow the consumer to buy what they want of your material.

You really should come at the issue of exposure on the internet from all angles. Put up youtube clips. Both liveclips and album recordings. Put links to all of your various sites ON all of your various sites. This gives people more chances to see your stuff, without having to consciously dig for it.

Additionally, if some of these third party services rub you the wrong way, buy a domain and pay for some hosting space. Its really not expensive to run a small site and if you are really hard pressed for the cash, get some ads going on it.

Myspace has always been great for band exposure. Often when I do an initial google search of a band, their myspace comes up right along with their main website---if they have one. Unfortunately a lot of bands have abandoned their msypaces----for what I dunno. Facebook only within the past few months has really started doing anything for bands.

Get on twitter and facebook and talk with your fans. A band I've followed for two years, I used to communicate with them on myspace and now they've moved communication to twitter.

Recently, I used my Japanese language powers to talk to THE REASON that I play bass guitar, on twitter. I asked her what kind of strings she uses. This women is a supremely prolific and well known artist in Japan. Playing with severl bands, a few of which were super groups, producing for many artists, and even she takes the time to respond to fans. To my surprise (due to rarely interviewing), she responded with near perfect english, so i was able to talk with her about a couple of other things more freely. I was on a fanboy high for a few days, I have to admit.

**TRichardsbass** · #17 08-16-2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toptube

I don't make music to be sold or otherwise dispersed myself. But as a consumer, one of the things i appreciate greatly is the approach seen on sites like bandcamp.

Let me stream most of/the entire album in decent (usually 128kbs) quality. then if I think its mostly great, I can buy it right there, in any high quality format I want and often even opt to have a CD sent to me for a little extra. This gives me a clearly legal route through which to listen to your music. Especially if I'm not nearby enough to make it to a show. Whereas in the past a lot of legitimate minded people would go into the gray/illegal area of downloading albums to feel them out and then buy them later if they thought they were good. If I can't listen to your music, do you think I'm going to just happen to buy it for some magic reason?

Alternatively, if you also have your stuff up on Itunes or Amazon, but I've been able to do a complete preview of it at one of your sites, I can still at least buy the two or three songs that I really do want. People might balk at this but fact is that some bands just don't have very good complete albums. Other issues lie in the varying tastes form person to person. Your grungy blues rock song might sell well with one person, but the next guy might want the pop rock song. (PeeEss: I don't use Itunes at all. So make sure to get your stuff on Amazon, too.) Burger king will sell a whopper without pickles or onions, and so should you allow the consumer to buy what they want of your material.

You really should come at the issue of exposure on the internet from all angles. Put up youtube clips. Both liveclips and album recordings. Put links to all of your various sites ON all of your various sites. This gives people more chances to see your stuff, without having to consciously dig for it.

Additionally, if some of these third party services rub you the wrong way, buy a domain and pay for some hosting space. Its really not expensive to run a small site and if you are really hard pressed for the cash, get some ads going on it.

Myspace has always been great for band exposure. Often when I do an initial google search of a band, their myspace comes up right along with their main website---if they have one. Unfortunately a lot of bands have abandoned their msypaces----for what I dunno. Facebook only within the past few months has really started doing anything for bands.

Get on twitter and facebook and talk with your fans. A band I've followed for two years, I used to communicate with them on myspace and now they've moved communication to twitter.

Recently, I used my Japanese language powers to talk to THE REASON that I play bass guitar, on twitter. I asked her what kind of strings she uses. This women is a supremely prolific and well known artist in Japan. Playing with severl bands, a few of which were super groups, producing for many artists, and even she takes the time to respond to fans. To my surprise (due to rarely interviewing), she responded with near perfect english, so i was able to talk with her about a couple of other things more freely. I was on a fanboy high for a few days, I have to admit.

Great stuff here. And thanks for buying the music.

I don't think anyone here in general, including me, doesn't agree with people being able to listen first and choose. The internet has become "the radio" in some ways so letting someone listen for free is not an issue. Its someone downloading and sharing for free something that is not theirs to share for free.

I'll look at bandcamp now...

Spinal Tapper · #18 08-16-2011, 10:47 AM

Bandcamp is brilliant. Entirely managed by the band, and you can set your own price for each song or entire album. You can also keep track of the traffic coming into your page. It's nifty.

We use a similar approach at shows, but even more rewarding for people who come out to see us:

We let people pay WHAT THEY WANT for our 7 song EP.

"Name your own price" we say...that way you're not giving it away for free, and more importantly, we're getting our music out there. I've always been in bands that had a standard price on CD's...$10, or $5, whatever. Stuff would NEVER sell and we have BOXES of CD's left for an old band that will never exist again (or maybe my old bands sucked, haha). This way, we're making sure to get rid of as many CD's as possible at each show and getting it in people's ears.

Also, when you ask your own price, we've found that most individuals feel bad about "underpaying" for our music and giving, say, $1 or $.25 for our CD, but if they choose to do that, it's fine with us...we don't judge them. Heck, we've traded CD's for flasks of whiskey and funny cigarettes when we were out of town once.

We find that MOST give whatever singles they have loose in their pocket - $3, $5, $10, or even $20, and end up spending more money on a t-shirt (which we have a set price at $15). And if we do end up getting a $20, we always offer to give change, and most of the time they decline. So we'll throw in some stickers, or maybe another copy of the album for them to give out to someone they love.

We also encourage anyone who gets a CD to burn copies for their friends/family who didn't make it to the show. Not once has it crossed our minds that we're getting ripped off in any way. It's our songs getting out to the masses, and that is most important at this stage in the game (for us, anyways). YMMV.

Toptube · #19 08-16-2011, 10:51 AM

here's a TB bandcamp thread:
Post your Bandcamp website here!

If you read through it, you'll notice I bought some music from someone who linked their site. because I was able to listen to it and liked it a lot. I also linked it in music threads at a couple of forums that I'm part of.

and just a couple of days ago I sat and browsed bands with genre tags for my general interests. Found some good stuff.

baalroo · #20 08-16-2011, 02:34 PM

My band makes our money on Merch and playing shows. We're still a new act and haven't recorded an album yet, but we're about to go in and do so this month. When it's done the first thing we'll do with it is upload it to the popular private torrent tracker sites. We then intend to specifically ask people to go to the most popular music torrent tracker (the name of which I will leave off here, since this place is a bit wonky about this sort of thing... but let's just say for those in the know that it starts with a "w" and ends with ".cd") and DL it there. In my experience, the "Top Downloads" there basically act as the new Billboard Top 200 for the 35 and under crowd of "music aficionado" types that make up our target demographic, and that's more advertising and exposure than an instrumental prog band could really pay for or expect a label to ever be able to realistically offer.

We'll use that album as a nice digital business card to promote our live shows and merchandise. 1s and 0s are free, so why would we charge for them?