New singer

Floyd Eye · #1 03-25-2010, 07:34 AM

So a couple of rehearsals ago we auditioned a new singer. After the 2nd time he played with us we have decided to keep him around awhile. He isn't the best singer and at this point I think most of the stuff we do sounds better with my guitar player singing ( although his guitar work is much better when he isn't hampered by having to sing too), but I think in time this guy could get up to speed and it could be pretty good. He fits in with all of us personality wise, much more so than other singers we have tried that although they sounded better I doubt they would be the kind of guys we would enjoy hanging out with.

I was thinking of giving it a month or so and then seeing how we sound. Does this sound reasonable ? Should I tell this guy that's what we're doing or should I just leave the issue of whether or not he's technically in the band remain vague for the time being?

hrodbert696 · #2 03-25-2010, 09:05 AM

Are you a working band or jamming for fun? If it's mostly for fun, I'd say the personality counts the most. You want someone who fits in and who you enjoy playing with. If you need to keep up a certain level of musicianship to keep the band in paying gigs, be up front with him and tell him you need him to hit a certain level by a particular time. A month is probably fair.

We're in a similar position, just added a singer/rhythm guitar to a power trio. He has trouble hitting the high notes on some of the songs we thought we'd play -- but we're mostly jamming for fun and will gig out a little when we're ready. So as far as I'm concerned he can stay.

tycobb73 · #3 03-25-2010, 10:00 AM

I have to like the people I'm with, but don't have to "hang" with them. Seeing them every week at practice is already more than I see any of my other friends. If the better singers aren't psycho's I'd take them.

And always tell people where they stand.

Stumbo · #4 03-25-2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tycobb73

And always tell people where they stand.

+1

If the vocalist is on "probation", let him know the specifics of what's required of him, now and in the future. If he meets your requirements, then he's in.

All the band members need to agree with what's going on. Nothing worse than 3 months from now, somebody starts in with "you, know, the guy is okay to hang with, but he's not that good. We need to replace him".

Dont' waste the singers time if you (or anybody else in the band) will always think he's the weakest link and bring it up somewhere down the road.

Question: Do you apply the same standards to everyone in the band as far as musicianship is concerned? If somebody has a weakness musically, do you address it or just over look it because you enjoy hanging out with him(her)? or do you go to the other band members and get them booted out?

I'm just sayin'...

jive1 · #5 03-25-2010, 12:53 PM

If you want to be fair, you need to give the guy a chance to fix it. If you don't tell him what he needs to fix, you're denying him that chance and the ability to make his own decision on how to proceed.

Be up front and let him know your expectations ASAP.

Floyd Eye · #6 03-26-2010, 04:17 AM

We're a working band, but it's still mostly for fun. lol

Seriously though, his voice isn't bad or anything and I really do think it will work out. We haven't formally asked him to join the group, but we keep having him back for rehearsals and he hasn't pushed the issue. I suppose when he thinks he's got it down he may, but I'll probably invite him formally before then. No one (including him) is in any doubt as to where they stand.

Thanks for the advice guys.

ROGI · #7 03-26-2010, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

+1

If the vocalist is on "probation", let him know the specifics of what's required of him, now and in the future. If he meets your requirements, then he's in.

All the band members need to agree with what's going on. Nothing worse than 3 months from now, somebody starts in with "you, know, the guy is okay to hang with, but he's not that good. We need to replace him".

Dont' waste the singers time if you (or anybody else in the band) will always think he's the weakest link and bring it up somewhere down the road.

Question: Do you apply the same standards to everyone in the band as far as musicianship is concerned? If somebody has a weakness musically, do you address it or just over look it because you enjoy hanging out with him(her)? or do you go to the other band members and get them booted out?

I'm just sayin'...

+1

Haysoochreesto · #8 03-26-2010, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jive1

If you want to be fair, you need to give the guy a chance to fix it. If you don't tell him what he needs to fix, you're denying him that chance and the ability to make his own decision on how to proceed.

Be up front and let him know your expectations ASAP.

Yeah. And this is in a similar vein to what everyone else has said but I'll throw in my two bits. Our last singer was a great guy and he could sing okay sometimes.

Without being overbearing and pushy we kept telling him and telling him about the good qualities he had but that he needed to do more work in order to really improve to the level we needed him to be at. I offered him my acoustic guitar to take home with him to work on pitch problems but he said no. Finally he just said that he couldn't do any more work than he was doing and so he had to go.

Give this new singer some fair criticism and be cool about it. See if you can nail him down to make a commitment to work on his weaknesses. You can hide weaknesses with other instruments but when your frontman is up there sounding like a goose getting tortured in an empty warehouse, it doesn't matter how great the rest of the band is.

Floyd Eye · #9 03-27-2010, 05:55 AM

"Give this new singer some fair criticism and be cool about it. See if you can nail him down to make a commitment to work on his weaknesses. You can hide weaknesses with other instruments but when your frontman is up there sounding like a goose getting tortured in an empty warehouse, it doesn't matter how great the rest of the band is."

This is pretty much what I did last night. Before we started I told him that if I stopped playing in the middle of a song to point out something he was doing wrong, not to take it as criticism as much as me just trying to show him the right way and that I wasn't trying to be pushy or anything. Since we need him up to speed as quickly as possible I don't think we need to waste any time practicing anything the wrong way.
He obviously had done some practicing on his own and he definitely sounded better last night. We added 3 more songs last night and he was a little sketchy on those, but we all made our share of mistakes, after all, it was the first time any of us had done those songs.

I am considerably happier about how we sounded last night.

JimmyM · #10 03-27-2010, 09:41 AM

i once learned this lesson the hard way. i once bounced a decent but not great singer who fit in really well in favor of a guy who sang way better but turned out to be a bit of a headcase. then we ended up not getting along, and he left, and the other guy got pissed and wouldn't come back. always felt really bad about that one.

Floyd Eye · #11 03-28-2010, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i once learned this lesson the hard way. i once bounced a decent but not great singer who fit in really well in favor of a guy who sang way better but turned out to be a bit of a headcase. then we ended up not getting along, and he left, and the other guy got pissed and wouldn't come back. always felt really bad about that one.

The guy is getting better. He's not tone deaf or anything. It took us no small amount of practice to get where we are now and the least I can do is allow him the same courtesy. He really does fit in with us, which in this day and age is a little bit of a rarity and certainly nothing to be overlooked.

jdwinva · #12 04-02-2010, 11:16 AM

I have been doing this for a while and had a revelation regarding singer auditions. If you aren't completely wowed in the audition then keep auditioning. Seriously, singers generally do not become more proficient over time.

Floyd Eye · #13 04-03-2010, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdwinva

I have been doing this for a while and had a revelation regarding singer auditions. If you aren't completely wowed in the audition then keep auditioning. Seriously, singers generally do not become more proficient over time.

You may be right. I recorded our practice last night and he was not good. It may be that he can't hear himself. He has his mic up way too loud and he is a tad flat most of the time. I'm going to email him an MP3 so he can hear what he sounds like and if he can't fix it then I'm going to have to figure out how to get rid of him.

Nothing like playing with another singer to make you realize how good your guitar player sings. I am thinking that staying a 3 piece might be the best idea. Maybe add a second guitar so my guitar player can sing the tough passages without dropping out.

Drag, he's a cool guy, but a bad singer makes the whole band sound like sh*t.

steveksux · #14 04-03-2010, 09:29 AM

Make sure you guys aren't drowning out the monitors, if he can't hear himself its hard not to sound like Lou Ferrigno singing...

Otherwise, singer is the most visible member of the band, the thing people focus on is vocals. The band is a distant second most of the time. As long as the band is half assed and the singers good, you can work. Much harder if the singer sounds mediocre, no matter how good the band is.

Good luck, finding a good singer that isn't a headcase is a real challenge.

If the guy gets along with you guys, that's also worth its weight in gold. If he's adequate, that might be a good fit.

Some posts sound like he's almost there, some sound like he's pretty bad. Maybe you couldn't hear the monitors good enough when you thought he sounded good? The tape won't lie. If you can live with sounding like that, go for it. If not.... keep looking.

Randy

Floyd Eye · #15 04-03-2010, 01:22 PM

Yeah, it don't surprise me that he can't hear the monitors. Our speakers are crap and our practice space is so small that feedback is an issue if we turn the PA up too loud. Never bothered the guitarist when he was singing though. I noticed last night that the clip lights were staying on and I knew something was up. I looked at the PA and he had his gain higher than we've ever pushed it. When I listened to the recording he was drowning out the drums, bass and guitar.

Ruoska · #16 04-03-2010, 01:38 PM

Unless you're only jamming, get a proper vocalist. You're only ever gonna have your friends and girlfriends in the audience if the vocalist sucks. If you get a good one and he's a dick, at least you know you'll make a great cd or two you can listen to later when you've gotten over him and the band breaking up

That's exactly what happened with my band. We had a great singer, everybody loved our music. We just weren't having fun with him and we called it quits. Later on we put the band back up as a trio and handled the vocal duties ourselves. We were having much more fun and were much more creative, but the music became too much about doing exactly what we wanted instead of giving people what they wanted hear. Sucks, don't it?

**butchblack** · #17 04-03-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

The guy is getting better. He's not tone deaf or anything. It took us no small amount of practice to get where we are now and the least I can do is allow him the same courtesy. He really does fit in with us, which in this day and age is a little bit of a rarity and certainly nothing to be overlooked.

I'm a big believer in band chemistry. If you're rehearsing and gigging you're spending a lot of time together. You should like each other and enjoy being in their company. As long as he is comfortably meeting your requirements for musicianship, give him a shot. At the local level at least I think it's as important as musicianship. I'd rather play with a competent player I liked then a somewhat better player I didn't get along with.

Floyd Eye · #18 04-04-2010, 06:58 AM

I sent him a recording of Friday night's rehearsal. He was appalled. He started talking about not doing this song and adding that song etc..

I told him we were going to keep all those songs, but we would definitely be doing some of the stuff he wants to do eventually, but he needs to get the ones we're doing right first. The problem is largely that he does not do mellow songs very well. He's good at sh*t like Tool and Godsmack and Deftones, but not real good at Nirvana, Local H, Harvey Danger, Everclear, etc..

I also told him to plug one of his ears at practice Tuesday night and see if that helps. Our FOH is plenty loud, but obviously our monitors suck. We got a big show end of next month and the fact is we can do all of those songs without him, so if he don't step it up considerably in the next couple weeks, he's out.

I hope he gets it, I like the guy. He's a tattoo artist too and God knows I always have a use for one of those.

steveksux · #19 04-04-2010, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

I sent him a recording of Friday night's rehearsal. He was appalled. He started talking about not doing this song and adding that song etc..

I told him we were going to keep all those songs, but we would definitely be doing some of the stuff he wants to do eventually, but he needs to get the ones we're doing right first. The problem is largely that he does not do mellow songs very well. He's good at sh*t like Tool and Godsmack and Deftones, but not real good at Nirvana, Local H, Harvey Danger, Everclear, etc..

I also told him to plug one of his ears at practice Tuesday night and see if that helps. Our FOH is plenty loud, but obviously our monitors suck. We got a big show end of next month and the fact is we can do all of those songs without him, so if he don't step it up considerably in the next couple weeks, he's out.

I hope he gets it, I like the guy. He's a tattoo artist too and God knows I always have a use for one of those.

He cant fix what he can't hear. Do you mean you guys really do have FOH? So turn stage volume down until you can hear monitors clearly.

You guys would refuse to accept not being able to hear your instruments on stage, right? You'd suck if you couldn't hear yourself play, might even slide up a fret by mistake and never know, right?

Goes double for him. Voices don't have frets to guide them. He has to be able to hear himself clearly or he's going to sing like this guy:

Try an acoustic practice, see if he can at least sing those troublesome songs acoustically and sound good.

Unless you guys get stage volume under the monitors, or get better monitors, he won't be able to work on that stuff. He may take time to work on it even if he can hear himself. So sooner the better. Maybe get him some in ear monitors. See how that works.

Randy

Floyd Eye · #20 04-04-2010, 11:13 AM

I mean we have 12" 2 way mains ( 1 pair) 2 12" monitors (which are crap) a 1X15 sub, a horn and a 1200 watt Yamaha powered mixer. Only vocals go through the PA. We can hear him just fine. We practice in a 12X12 room. Most of the time I wish I could hear myself better too. Guitar player has always sang before and he manages to do it on key.
None of us really know sh*t about PAs. I can't figure out how to run this unit 2 to the mains, 2 to the monitors. It may be broke, we bought it used. I know when we hook all the speakers up and use it L-main, R-main they all work and the thing seems pretty loud.