The newbie's catch 22

[CodaPDX]

First a little background - I've been playing bass for about nine months now, and I absolutely love the instrument. While chronologically I don't have much time under my belt, I have a pretty rigorous practice ethic and quite a bit of natural facility with the instrument, so I play like someone who's been at it for much longer.

After about six months, I started to get tired of just playing on my own and with my teacher, and started looking to join a band. After a pretty intensive search and a bunch of false starts, I finally found a neat local band doing originals, aced the audition, and everything was groovy. Practices were going well, and in six weeks or so I had most of their songs under my fingertips and was ready to start gigging with them.

Then I get a call from the singer saying that I and the drummer were getting booted. I took the news pretty calmly and politely asked what I could have done better, in the interest of not making any of the same mistakes in the future. I got this email in response:

that's really cool that you wanted to talk about this instead of getting defensive and angry. it says a lot about you that you want feedback. but the only thing i can say is that its just not the right time. i should have been more vocal about trying it out with you first and seeing where it goes instead of just saying "cool, you know how to play, let's go." i take the blame for that. you're not doing anything wrong whatsoever. its just that you are very new and it takes some time. its taken me about 7 years to get here and when i was only 7 months into it, like you, i understood that i wasn't bad, just needed to practice more. so basically where the singer and i are at is a place where we don't want to waste anymore time waiting for others to catch up. i have played with bass players in the past who didn't need to hear anything from me and could start playing the song immediately. but that's because they had been playing for 10+ years. you are already pretty good at that so that also says a lot about your ability. also, we just want someone with a bit more stage experience. so, i guess i can't say it enough but its not anything you were doing wrong. you did everything right. we just want to surround ourselves with very experienced, seasoned musicians. i don't know if our singer told you, but we also had to let the drummer go which was not easy. there are a lot of things there but the main thing was his focus, initiative and consistency. we can't have that. we felt held back. but he was experienced so it isn't just that. its a combination. you weren't like that at all but the experience thing is the issue. all really good bands surround themeselves with the best possible musicians. you are a fantastic musician and if you really want to do something like this, i see no reason you couldn't. but we just need a little more experience-that's all. but if you have any other questions or concerns, please let me know. thanks so much for everything.

All in all, I'm glad I had the opportunity to play and practice with them for this short time, as I learned a lot. That said, I'm kind of disappointed, as bands willing to bring on a beginning bassist like myself seem to be few an far between. I mean, when I was looking for a band the first time, it seemed like they were all looking for someone with serious chops and prior experience. I was relieved to land the audition for this band when I did, but getting canned isn't very encouraging.

I'm not looking to turn music into a career, but I would eventually like to be playing regular local gigs. Do any of you have any advice for bassists like me who are just starting out and having trouble getting past that Catch 22 of "gotta be in a band to get experience, but gotta have experience to get in a band?"

[chroma601]

This is difficult in any profession. In any case, why not try going to open jam sessions? They seem to be going on everywhere. They're a great way to make contacts.

Don't give up trying after disappointments. Stay with your teacher as long as you can, keep plugging away, and you will persevere. One thing I've discovered about music is that you are never finished learning. In fact, the more you learn about music, the more there is to learn. Nine months is but the blink of an eye, in two years you will be markedly better than you are now. And likely before then, you will find a musical partnership and be out of this catch-22.

Best of luck to you. You will get where you want to go.

[Shaun_Bass0]

Ok, you both took the mature option here and thats cool, respect to you guys for that...but to say you did nothing wrong but your "experience" isn't enough isn't really a reason to get rid of you. If your good, your good man, end of.

Sounds like you did everything right, best advice i think here would be to do exactly the same in the next audition and hope that your obviously well developed musicianship is the deciding factor, as it should be. Thats not to say that attitude/image/stage persona isnt important, it is, but if you look cool but can't play your not realistically gonna get too many gigs (Sid Vicious being the obvious exception here!).

Crack on dude, theres plenty more bands out there....

[Terry Funk]

The only advice that I can say is stay in the 'shed and continue to develop. Also work on developing your ear via ear training as it seems as though that was one of the sticking points. Have you ever thought about writing songs and starting your own band? It sounds like you're on the path to becoming a very good bass musician, so stay positive and keep on keepin' on.

[Jehos]

Reading between the lines, it sounds like the singer and guitarist felt like you and the drummer aren't as good as they are. Don't take it hard, just keep looking for a new band, and keep practicing. I thought I was a lot better at 7 months than I know I am at almost 15 years, and I still don't think I'm that good.

[lunarpollen]

That was a very cool response e-mail you got. I'm sure you'll find another band in no time!

[CodaPDX]

Originally Posted by Jehos

Reading between the lines, it sounds like the singer and guitarist felt like you and the drummer aren't as good as they are. Don't take it hard, just keep looking for a new band, and keep practicing. I thought I was a lot better at 7 months than I know I am at almost 15 years, and I still don't think I'm that good.

Yeah, I think that's probably the case, but for what it's worth, I wasn't really blown away with the guitarist or the singer. The guitarist was a decent songwriter with a good sense of rhythm and an obsession with alternate tunings, but didn't have much in the way of chops beyond banging out barre chords and picking out the occasional melodic line. The singer had a good voice, but she wasn't really all that charismatic or remarkable as a frontwoman. If anything, the drummer was the best musician in the band. In part, that's kinda what attracted me to the band in the first place - they weren't anything special, so I could fit right in and learn as much as I could while it lasted. Or so I thought. I dunno.

[Jefenator]

Catch-22, been there. Seems like for a while "don't call us" was my middle name.

Nothing for it but to soldier on. Keep shedding and get performance experience wherever, however you possibly can. It may come as a trickle at first, but if you keep at it with a good, open attitude, some lucky group is going to nab you.

[RobertPaulson]

Keep up with your playing and having a professional attitude like that, and there will be no shortage of people who want you to play bass for them. Not everything works out, no reason to get discouraged.

[thudfromafar]

There are a lot of different bands out there...and a lot of people like you, who have no experience -- yet are decent, passionate musicians. Find musicians according to your level and play with them. Even the worst bands can land gigs and gain experience. There are a lot of opportunities for you to play with other people and grow that way, as well as gigging opportunities.

In short, I don't think your catch-22 is accurate, because you don't need to have experience to be in a band. So, join a band and gain experience.

[Jimmyplaysabass]

start your own band with friends. forget about talent, have fun. if you guys play a song thats 3 chords, and you **** up left and right, but you have the energy and the heart, that's all that matters.

nobody would play music at all if there wasn't satisfaction, and self satisfaction through whatever bas you set yourself is all that matters

[Jimmyplaysabass]

bar* not bas

[msiner]

His response was nice, but not very constructive. They obviously noticed some things to make them come to that decision. Here are some questions I would ask myself in retrospect:
1) Did I know where the songs were going or was I always taking cues from the singer/guitarist?
2) Did I interact with the singer/guitarist or just look down at my bass?
3) Did I do anything to add my own flavor or just play what they told me to play? (the answer to this could both hurt or help you depending on what they want)
4) Did my gear make me look unprofessional to them or was it on the same level with the rest of the band gear?
5) Were my leather pants tight enough or were they too tight? ( or, more generally, did I match up with the stage style the band is looking for? )

Don't read too much into it. When they do find a bassist that is "as experienced" as they are or possibly "as egocentric", they will probably just bicker and break up do to creative differences.

[CodaPDX]

Originally Posted by msiner

His response was nice, but not very constructive. They obviously noticed some things to make them come to that decision. Here are some questions I would ask myself in retrospect:
1) Did I know where the songs were going or was I always taking cues from the singer/guitarist?
2) Did I interact with the singer/guitarist or just look down at my bass?
3) Did I do anything to add my own flavor or just play what they told me to play? (the answer to this could both hurt or help you depending on what they want)
4) Did my gear make me look unprofessional to them or was it on the same level with the rest of the band gear?
5) Were my leather pants tight enough or were they too tight? ( or, more generally, did I match up with the stage style the band is looking for? )

Don't read too much into it. When they do find a bassist that is "as experienced" as they are or possibly "as egocentric", they will probably just bicker and break up do to creative differences.

Thanks for the great feedback, msiner. I think the biggest factors were probably 1 and 2. As for 3, I think they were generally impressed with many of the basslines I wrote, although it took me relatively longer to get them hashed out than they may have been used to. For 4, well, my basses are quite nice, and a 220W 15" combo is pretty sufficient to play shows the small clubs that were on the schedule. 5-wise, well, leather pants aren't really my style.

Guess things to work on down the road are breaking my eyes away from the fretboard more often and interacting more with the rest of the band.

[chroma601]

Originally Posted by CodaPDX

If anything, the drummer was the best musician in the band. In part, that's kinda what attracted me to the band in the first place

Why not get in touch with the drummer and work towards building a band from there?

[kraigo]

Did you like the drummer? If so, all you need is a guitarist. Someone has to sing. Keep at it. Most of us have been in more than a half a dozen bands over time. Most of us have been let go at one time or another. You can't take it too personally. Work on what you think you're weak at.

If your bass gear is adequate, start accumulating a small PA* for rehearsals and small gigs. A bassist who sings and has some PA? Your phone will be ringing off the hook! It's tough to be in the rhythm section. You are not as in control of your destiny as a singer or a guitarist. Start moving it to a point where you can control your destiny a bit better. If you liked the drummer, start working as a team. It's hard to do it all yourself.

KO

*I have a six channel, 2x 300 watt Yamaha powered mixer, a few inexpensive mics and four small cabs for mains and monitors. I shopped hard, so I've got maybe a little over $800 into it. I've used it for block parties - it's enough if you're only using it for vocals. Plenty for rehearsals.

[Rocker949]

That response from the singer sounded very condescending to me. If I had received a response such as that, I would not have taken it so well. It is fairly obvious to me that both the singer and guitarist are overrating themselves, too. I would get together with the drummer and form a new band. Oh, yes, as someone who was in a band many years as both singer and bassist, I would be hesitant taking advice from someone who was only a singer. If another musician specifically pointed out mistakes I was making on bass, that would be another matter. Then I might take that person seriously. But these comments from the singer appear to be useless, vague crap.

[ThunderLizard]

Coda-
You've probably gotten all you can from the first band. Hopefully you'll both move on to better things. NEVER burn a musical bridge; just because it didn't work out with the original band doesn't mean they won't refer you to someone looking for a BassPlayer.
A big part of playing the bass is the band dynamic, so keep looking for other folks to play with. Keep networking & auditioning and the opportunities will find you.

[gdawg27]

That response from the singer sounded very condescending to me. If I had received a response such as that, I would not have taken it so well. It is fairly obvious to me that both the singer and guitarist are overrating themselves, too. I would get together with the drummer and form a new band. Oh, yes, as someone who was in a band many years as both singer and bassist, I would be hesitant taking advice from someone who was only a singer. If another musician specifically pointed out mistakes I was making on bass, that would be another matter. Then I might take that person seriously. But these comments from the singer appear to be useless, vague crap.

I agree. Years don't always add up to experience. If they were truly experienced, they would have been able to tell that you and the drummer weren't a good fit for their band during the audition.

I've played with singers who are "experienced" and have performed live for years who weren't that good.

I agree with the sentiment of getting together with the drummer and forming your own thing.

[Jehos]

Originally Posted by CodaPDX

Yeah, I think that's probably the case, but for what it's worth, I wasn't really blown away with the guitarist or the singer. The guitarist was a decent songwriter with a good sense of rhythm and an obsession with alternate tunings, but didn't have much in the way of chops beyond banging out barre chords and picking out the occasional melodic line. The singer had a good voice, but she wasn't really all that charismatic or remarkable as a frontwoman. If anything, the drummer was the best musician in the band. In part, that's kinda what attracted me to the band in the first place - they weren't anything special, so I could fit right in and learn as much as I could while it lasted. Or so I thought. I dunno.

Welcome to life in bands. In my experience, everybody thinks that progressing the direction they're progressing is "good". What I mean is that you may be getting better at playing in the pocket and locking in with a drummer. The guitarist may be working on alternate tunings and weird music theory while having terrible timing. You both think you're better than the other.

(not trying to put words in your mouth, just explaining)

It's perfectly normal, that's why it's so rare to find bands that play the music you want, at the level you want, and require the time commitment you want, etc.

I guess my point is that you're doing nothing at all wrong, in fact you're way ahead of the game by handling being fired maturely, and just keep looking for the right band for you.