No bass in the vox monitors?

stedtale · #1 02-02-2006, 09:07 AM

I'm not sure if this is the correct area, but here goes.

Last night I was playing at a churc service at a place I have never played before. Nice set-up, great sound system, decepnt equiptment on stage. To give the set-up: The bass and drums were in the back a little higher than the guitar and vox, about 10 feet behind and 4 feet up. The bass amp (Nemesis 2x10) was facing me and behind me and the drummer was a nice padded sound absorbing wall. The vocals and guitar wanted more bass in their monitor. The sound man said he didn't want to put any in their monitors because it would "muddy up the mix". Ok, but then he said that I should just turn my amp up untill they hear enough bass.

My question to you experieced sound guys is this: does that make sense?

I'm not knockin' the sound guy, he knew what he was doing and was a pro in all aspects. But to me it seemed odd that cranking up the bass amp on stage so that people 10 feet behind it, the amp was facing me, and 4 feet below it could hear enough bass would create more stage volume muddiness than putting a little in the vocal/guitarists monitor.

Am I thinking wrong?

Thanks.

Edwcdc · #2 02-02-2006, 09:53 AM

I don't like bass in the voc monitors. I prefer to get it from my amp. On the other hand if the others on stage can't hear me I feel that I can only turn up so much before I'm too loud for myself. If possible the best solution would be to reposition your speakers so that everyone is able to get enough bass.
Also remember, it is very important for everyone to hear the bass because it is the driving force behind all that is music.

AlembicPlayer · #3 02-02-2006, 10:01 AM

I recently worked a Gov't Mule show and setup the backline. Warren Haynes runs a small ampeg bass combo behind his guitar rig(from the bass rig line out) so he can get enough bass onstage for himself. He also runs a Leslie cab so he can get the keys on his side of the stage without compromising the monitors.
that maybe be overkill for your gig, but it's a common issue. I agree with facing your bass cab into the mix more...maybe a different stage plot is needed here.

stedtale · #4 02-02-2006, 10:10 AM

I agree that a better amp placement would help, but I don't play at that venue enough to actually change it around, they seem to like the way their stage is set-up. It's a plug and play type thing, all I bring is my bass, they have all their own amps, drums, etc. When I'm setting up the stage I usually try to have the bass amp shooting more sideways cross everyone than directly back at me.

I was just intrigued that the sound guy would tell me to crank my amp way up before he'd put and bass in the vox monitor up front. I just thought that he'd like to keep stage volume lower. But, he runs sound there often, so I can only assume he knows what he's doing and what works for that stage.

Edwcdc · #5 02-02-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedtale

I agree that a better amp placement would help, but I don't play at that venue enough to actually change it around, they seem to like the way their stage is set-up. It's a plug and play type thing, all I bring is my bass, they have all their own amps, drums, etc. When I'm setting up the stage I usually try to have the bass amp shooting more sideways cross everyone than directly back at me.

I was just intrigued that the sound guy would tell me to crank my amp way up before he'd put and bass in the vox monitor up front. I just thought that he'd like to keep stage volume lower. But, he runs sound there often, so I can only assume he knows what he's doing and what works for that stage.

That is a little odd that he would tell you to turn up. Most sound guys I know would be happy if everyone had Line6 PODS and electronic drums.
It is a lot easier for them to control the sound when the stage volumes are low.

Passinwind · #6 02-02-2006, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stedtale

I was just intrigued that the sound guy would tell me to crank my amp way up before he'd put and bass in the vox monitor up front. I just thought that he'd like to keep stage volume lower. But, he runs sound there often, so I can only assume he knows what he's doing and what works for that stage.

This is pretty common, in my experience. Especially if the wedges are marginally powered or only have 12s or smaller in them. The stage volume may not really be improved by putting bass in a bunch of cabs and turning down the bass amp anyway, because of phase cancellation (and addition) issues. When I mix in small clubs, I actually end up needing to keep bass out of the front of house speakers pretty often too.

I agree that the right stage plot would be a big bonus. The sound guy may know what he's doing in this case.

There are plenty of cases where that approach wouldn't be so hot too though.

stedtale · #7 02-02-2006, 11:55 AM

Maybe next time I'll ask him if I can do some reploting. He's an excellent sound guy (acouctical reinforcement aural technician and engineer

), so he's probably tried that already.

I was just curious because I've never had a sound guy ever tells me to turn UP my amp

Diggler · #8 02-02-2006, 01:28 PM

We do that because we have a smaller monitor setup, and I'd like to keep as much power reserved as possible for the vocals. The only thing that goes through our monitors is guitar and vocals. Bass soaks up a lot of amp.

WalterBush · #9 02-02-2006, 01:34 PM

Sounds to me like the guy was worried about equipment damage, not muddiness or a quality mix. I'm sure it worked out fine, but it isn't good practice. They may need a better monitor setup.

ThumbyAche · #10 02-02-2006, 01:47 PM

When I play at church I usually have just a tad off bass in the vocal monitors and then angle to where it's either facing me or the rest of the band (if I'm on the end). Most sound guy's I have had experience with really don't like having a lot of stage volume because it's harder for them to control the overall mix. Everybody can usually adjust their own monitor mix so I guess I don't have to deal with the same problem.

**Ryan L.** · #11 02-02-2006, 02:56 PM

This is why I love having a seperate monitor board on stage like we do--each band member can have EXACTLY what he wants in his monitor. Personally, I run only vocals in mine, I let my amp be my stage monitor. But occasionally, the guitar player(s) want a little bit of the bass in theirs, so they can dial it in however they want.

And that way, all that our soundman has to do is worry about the FOH sound, and not put up with us whining about our monitor mixes.

TL5 · #12 02-02-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Lunneborg

..that way, all that our soundman has to do is worry about the FOH sound, and not put up with us whining about our monitor mixes.

That is, unless it gets to the point the on-stage monitors overpower the FOH. Then the whining turns to screaming, yelling and insults.

**Ryan L.** · #13 02-02-2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TL5

That is, unless it gets to the point the on-stage monitors overpower the FOH. Then the whining turns to screaming, yelling and insults.

We've been working together with the same soundman long enough that everything clicks together pretty well.

About 50% of the time we are using IEM's, so our stage volume is pretty low then. But when we set up wedges, we don't have a problem with them overpowering the FOH. But then, we have a large FOH rig, so it would take a LOT of monitor volume to overpower it (4 JBL SRX dual 18" cabs, 4 JBL SRX dual 15"+horn cabs).