not meshing with the guitarist/growing pains

hernameisrio · #1 10-31-2011, 10:28 PM

So I play in this punk band, kinda Clash/Buzzcocks sensibilities but with female vocals. I just do it for fun, although making money at gigs never hurts. We're still basically in our infancy but tonight we played our first gig with this line-up. We've been rehearsing for two hours a week, more or less every week, save for vacations and other schedule conflicts. So yeah, we're a new band, but we take rehearsals very seriously.

Having said all this, I've been locking in with the drummer quite nicely and it's genuinely a pleasure to play with him. So that's great. The problem is that the guitarist has a really odd sense of rhythm (read: next to none), he tends to overplay, and his tone is just really muddy with lots of bad distortion and too much mid-range...AND he also plays too loud as it is. So it's just really grating. I think we would sound better if the guitar were a bit cleaner and more...poppy, I guess. But then again, it's not really my decision.

I kinda thought that when we played live, things would drop into place a bit better, but the guitarist was kinda a mess tonight, and it was very frustrating. Thankfully the drummer and I managed to hold things up (the lead vocalist is one of those types who's in her own world and we've all accepted this as part of our sound), but it still made me realize how disconcerting it was to try and play with this guy.

Which leads me to a gripe that I'm reluctant to mention, since I'm quite sure it's been covered on here before. I'm not going to say, "Oh, I hate guitarists! Blah blah blah" because that's not fair, and besides, *I* play guitar. But what I will say is, I feel like most of the guitarists I've run into since I've started playing in bands either have bad tone, they overplay, they're too loud, they have no rhythm, or they're just limited in what they're capable of. Honestly, as someone who tries to be creative with my bass lines, there are times where I don't necessarily WANT to be pushed way to the bottom end, but because the guitarist is noodling all over the place, I have no room to try out higher octaves or more innovative bass lines.

I don't know what I'm looking for here...sympathy, advice, I just needed to vent. I feel great about the way I played, but that's kinda selfish and pointless...it bothers me that the band was not more cohesive and I feel that our guitarist is limiting our sound. But since it's partially his project, we're stuck, right? I honestly feel like I'm probably going to outgrow this band within a matter of months.

I'm one of those people where I like playing so much, that I'll pretty much play with anybody. But I'm starting to reach a point where I'm tired of being one of the better players in the band, the one everybody turns to for advice on gear, extra batteries/cables/tuner/Can You Fix My Input Jack/This XLR Cable Is Broken/pens/earplugs/safety pins. It's...flattering, to a degree...but I also just feel like I need to surround myself by people who are equal to or greater than me, if only because I can't hold everybody else up; I need to focus on MY playing! And aside from that, like I said, I'm really not impressed by most guitarists these days. I feel bad saying this but it's the truth.

You think there's any hope of getting this guy to tighten up and fly right, or should I take the drummer with me and move on?

Sundogue · #2 10-31-2011, 10:42 PM

I've been in that position, not all that long ago.

Drop the guitar player...like a bad, really bad habit. And do it now.

People come and go, into and out of your life. They are there only to serve your life, like you are there serving theirs. Once you learn to let go and just allow things to take there natural course, you'll find that one of the new guitarists that will come into your life will give you an "Aha!" moment. THAT will be the guitar player you are meant to play with.

Life is full of "Aha!" moments if you are open to them. And the more open and aware you are to those moments, the easier life is. Stop swimming upstream. It's obvious this guitar player isn't going to work but you are clinging, only in hopes that it would work out. But you know in your heart it won't.

You can't find what's right without also finding what's wrong.

sound of bass · #3 10-31-2011, 11:18 PM

Is this a relatively new guitard? New enough of a player where he may be able to improve with some time? Or would it be like teaching an old dog a new trick with very little hope for change? If hes already a legend in his own mind, and its doubtful hes open to changing, then dump him.

hernameisrio · #4 10-31-2011, 11:36 PM

Well, I know he's been playing for at least five years, because that's how long he's been writing these songs with the singer. And it's weird, when he's just messing around by himself, he's definitely got some chops and some good ideas. But then throw him in with the rest of the band and he's messy and uninventive. I don't know if it's possible to get rid of him without messing up the band because of the fact that he shares the project and songwriting credits with the singer. So I guess it would really be up to her, and I don't know if she'd want to terminate a 5-year working relationship. I'm just frustrated because I realize I don't have a lot of say in this, and I enjoy playing with these guys in general...good energy, they're really nice people, and it's definitely given me some room to get my own chops up and be somewhat inventive with what I do. But as time goes by, I start to feel limited.

P. Aaron · #5 11-01-2011, 06:46 AM

It may be worth it to ask the other members about the music when he's not around. Our do a full circle evaluation with all members present...air it out.

This mud & inconsistency is wrecking the fun and growth...right? You gotta figure out if this is it or, can it improve with constructive criticism or, a replacement part.

mellowinman · #6 11-01-2011, 06:59 AM

It's not hard to find a really, really good guitar player.

Good bass and drums is much harder to find.

Do the math.

Sundogue · #7 11-01-2011, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hernameisrio

Well, I know he's been playing for at least five years, because that's how long he's been writing these songs with the singer. And it's weird, when he's just messing around by himself, he's definitely got some chops and some good ideas. But then throw him in with the rest of the band and he's messy and uninventive. I don't know if it's possible to get rid of him without messing up the band because of the fact that he shares the project and songwriting credits with the singer. So I guess it would really be up to her, and I don't know if she'd want to terminate a 5-year working relationship. I'm just frustrated because I realize I don't have a lot of say in this, and I enjoy playing with these guys in general...good energy, they're really nice people, and it's definitely given me some room to get my own chops up and be somewhat inventive with what I do. But as time goes by, I start to feel limited.

I had a guitarist who was awesome...by himself. Playing with anyone else? Not so much. He could not play with others no matter what.

I had a lot invested that made sense to keep him, yet it just sucked so bad the ties had to be cut. Only a few months later I have THE guitar player and my band is light years beyond where we were. Had I not cut him I'd still be pissing and moaning about it.

Talk it out with the other members but be clear HE is not a viable option for playing out. Perhaps he can hang as part of the songwriting "team", but live? No.

hernameisrio · #8 11-01-2011, 07:46 AM

Mellow: this is true...I should be thankful, I guess. I wonder if we'd be better off just letting this guy play lead guitar and then bringing in a second/rhythm guitarist...? I think part of the problem is that when he's switching from lead lines to rhythm parts, he tends to lose the groove pretty quickly. Maybe if we could split the difference by being able to keep him "on the team" but then replacing most of his duties with someone more competent, it would give us a better direction. I'm just starting to feel like the way I used to feel in elementary school when I'd do group projects and I'd end up doing all the work because of being stuck in a group with the lazy kids who just weren't as smart. You know the feeling, I think. It actually sucks...I don't need the ego boost; I'd rather be pushed by others who are better than me, to grow and progress as a player.

mellowinman · #9 11-01-2011, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hernameisrio

Mellow: this is true...I should be thankful, I guess. I wonder if we'd be better off just letting this guy play lead guitar and then bringing in a second/rhythm guitarist...? I think part of the problem is that when he's switching from lead lines to rhythm parts, he tends to lose the groove pretty quickly. Maybe if we could split the difference by being able to keep him "on the team" but then replacing most of his duties with someone more competent, it would give us a better direction. I'm just starting to feel like the way I used to feel in elementary school when I'd do group projects and I'd end up doing all the work because of being stuck in a group with the lazy kids who just weren't as smart. You know the feeling, I think. It actually sucks...I don't need the ego boost; I'd rather be pushed by others who are better than me, to grow and progress as a player.

I would lose him like a three year old loses car keys. Irretrievably and forever.

hernameisrio · #10 11-01-2011, 12:59 PM

Man...I just want to people to play with who are GOOD!

AsianVoodoo · #11 11-01-2011, 01:09 PM

Maybe you should talk to him about how his sound works when its incorporated in a group sound setting. Its a reality that we all have to face. What we think sounds great by itself can be a disaster in a group setting. It makes sense if you think about it. A sound that is really "full" takes up a lot of sonic space across the eq range (bass, mid treble) but when you play with a group you find that the other artists fall in these domains as well. A typically kind of "full" sound will actually muddy the overall sound. Learned this from a keyboardist who had a bad habit of playing real low in his octave range we drowned each out. Ask him to professionally step back and listen to how his sound mixes. Talk to the others in the group and if you're all on the same page it should be easy. If he's mature and interested in your groups overall presentation he will change. If not, drop him. Also, if you are going to do this take a listen to how your own sound and approach works in the group mix. You may find that some of the fault is yours as well. Its important to lose the ego for a second and step back. I had to do it and when I did I became much more desirable as a bassist.

MysticMichael · #12 11-01-2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellowinman

It's not hard to find a really, really good guitar player.

Word. Guitarists are a dime a dozen. Good guitarists are a dollar a dozen. And really good guitarists are still pretty plentiful - IF you're willing to hold out for one.

Why all this hand-wringing about cutting the guy loose? The truth is if you're not willing to be hard-nosed in pursuit of excellence, you will always be saddled with mediocrity.

Think about it...

MM

walterw · #13 11-01-2011, 09:13 PM

comic charlie murphy (of all people) had a great line about this very thing, hanging on to the wrong people in hopes they'll change; "once you bake a cake, it's a cake."

i can see a teenager/young adult shedding bad habits and growing into something, but once they're "grown up"? they are who they are, and they'll do what they do.

mellowinman · #14 11-01-2011, 09:36 PM

All I can say is, every time I part with someone who is not quite good enough, I end up with someone better. This has also been the story with the women in my life.

I can honestly say I have no regrets.

hernameisrio · #15 11-02-2011, 12:16 AM

Well, mellowinman, I hope the same goes for me, seeing as how I also just broke up with my guy. No hand-wringing there. :P Also, mmm, cake. We are having a band meeting later in the week. I was on the phone with the lead singer for a while and made some gentle suggestions for everybody, myself included. I think if everybody in the band can get more motivated and focused about making a name for ourselves and really nailing things down, it'll be a step in the right direction. If nothing changes in a couple of months, I'll move on.

Vakmere · #16 11-02-2011, 08:19 AM

You're playing punk, how good does the guitar player really have to be? You wont find a Lee Rittenour type looking to play with you so either settle or start playing tastier music.

fhm555 · #17 11-02-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P. Aaron

...It may be worth it to ask the other members about the music when he's not around....

The quickest way to destroy a band is to start talking about band matters (especially problems) without all members present.

...~~Our~~ Or do a full circle evaluation with all members present...air it out...

This

...

hernameisrio · #18 11-02-2011, 10:26 AM

Vakmere, part of why I'm waffling about this (mmm, waffles) is because I'M not sure if *I* want to stick around...you hit the nail on the head. It's definitely brought up, for me, the fact that I don't really see myself as a punk bassist. I initially joined up because I liked some of the songs and liked the fact that there was a female vocalist. It's not your standard 3-chord stuff and that appealed to me too, because I felt like it DID give me room to play more tasty without coming off as a pretentious ****. For example, they cited in the ad that they were looking for a John Entwhistle type, which to me was a good sign. I kinda knew there would come a day when I'd outgrow this project, even though it's only been a few months; I play for at least 3 hours every day and I pretty much eat, sleep, and breathe music, whereas these guys don't seem quite as serious. Even so, I don't like to come off as being a flake about things or being insincere, and once I start feeling like I'm getting along well with the band and enjoying myself, it's that much harder to walk away from the project. Despite the issues with the guitarist, I still have a good time playing. So honestly, I guess it's not just him, it's me.

Willie Dizon · #19 11-02-2011, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellowinman

It's not hard to find a really, really good guitar player.

Good bass and drums is much harder to find.

Do the math.

X2!!!

Vakmere · #20 11-02-2011, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hernameisrio

Vakmere, part of why I'm waffling about this (mmm, waffles) is because I'M not sure if *I* want to stick around...you hit the nail on the head. It's definitely brought up, for me, the fact that I don't really see myself as a punk bassist. I initially joined up because I liked some of the songs and liked the fact that there was a female vocalist. It's not your standard 3-chord stuff and that appealed to me too, because I felt like it DID give me room to play more tasty without coming off as a pretentious ****. For example, they cited in the ad that they were looking for a John Entwhistle type, which to me was a good sign. I kinda knew there would come a day when I'd outgrow this project, even though it's only been a few months; I play for at least 3 hours every day and I pretty much eat, sleep, and breathe music, whereas these guys don't seem quite as serious. Even so, I don't like to come off as being a flake about things or being insincere, and once I start feeling like I'm getting along well with the band and enjoying myself, it's that much harder to walk away from the project. Despite the issues with the guitarist, I still have a good time playing. So honestly, I guess it's not just him, it's me.

It's not you.
How many times have we heard a woman say "I want more".
What does that mean? I means take the next step. In your musical years to come you'll want more and you'll have to be ready for it when the opportunity arrives. Start now. Get your chops together and play with lots of people doing styles that appeal to you. If your mates dont put any time into their craft then they will be instrument owners for years to come instead of muscians. I dont waste any more time dealing with bands who sound bad but are nice people. I want to play to my ability, I want more. It in turn decreasses the number of bands to play with however at this point in my life I want quality also. It's like saying your favorite sports team sucks and lose every game BUT they're nice people. You can have nice and good at the same time - mostly.