One Member Stonewalling Progress

[Haysoochreesto]

The thread title is kind of confusing so I'll expand on it.

We're a cover band and I think we're a cut above most others in terms of song selection and sound. Until recently we've all worked well together and respected each other's choices for song selection. We had a situation going where one of the members would pick 2 songs they wanted to do and then once those were done, the next member would pick 2 songs and so on.

We're up to about 50 songs that we can do in our sleep. They easily fill 4 sets and several upcoming gigs have only room for 3 sets. About 5 songs are crowd killers that we're probably not going to do anymore except upon request and another 10 are slow-ish songs that we learned for a specific venue that requested our first set be a mellow one.

Now, me and the guitar player really want to add some new stuff into the mix. This is so that the people who come to see us can hear something new and just as importantly so that we keep learning and keep the thing interesting for us.

However, one member keeps stonewalling in regards to doing new material. He keeps talking about "improving the show" but can't really articulate what he means by it. There are about 6 or 7 songs that we do that he doesn't play any part in so we said that from now on we'll only pick songs that include every instrument in the band. But he's still dragging his feet.

So basically what's happened is because of one guy, we can't do anything new. This problem is compounded by the fact that he and the drummer are good friends so he gets the drummer on board with him and that really kills any hope of doing new stuff. Me and the guitar player know that if he had his way, the drummer would want to do new stuff too but he feels a greater loyalty as a friend, which is somewhat understandable, but what do we do?

We don't want to split up the band because until recently we had great chemistry and really respectful give and take. We've worked well with each other and have managed to put together a good thing. Hell, last weekend we made almost $350 each. We've talked about trying to do weddings and corporate gigs but for that we need a lot more material.

Oh, and now he only wants to practice twice a month. As it stands right now, it's really hard for me to be motivated to pick up my bass and practice at home. For a while I entertained myself by adding my own stuff to the songs we do but there's only so much of that you can do before you ruin the song. I need to learn new stuff to keep me interested and so does the guitar player.

What to do?

[Crazyeelboy]

It looks like there is one of four things going on:

1) He really wants to tighten up your act so that you do fewer songs but better - if this is the case, you should take this seriously and see if you can improve;

2) He wants to focus the band into a certain genre - if this is the case, you should talk this out to see where he wants to go.

3) He wants more say in the material the band does. Song selection often becomes a big control issue in cover bands and he may be feeling a bit left out. If this is the case, bring him more into the process - his ego may need a bit of stroking.

4) He really wants to spend less time and effort on the band. If this is the case, you need to find out why he feels this way and whether this is just a passive way for him to ultimately quit the group.

[Brad Johnson]

I'm a firm believer in practicing at home and rehearsing when I get with other musicians. You can practice any new music you like at home. If you need a band rehearsal to be motivated to practice, that's an issue solely with you. Other than tightening up songs since you're not adding new ones, there's no reason to keep rehearsing what you already have down.

I've been with groups that wanted to rehearse alot and the funny thing is that in most cases there really wasn't any real improvement in the product. So what was the point? I don't need lots of rehearsing (neither do any other competent musicians I know of) so it's never a good fit for me. For example, I've been in one band that does corporate/private/wedding gigs and in around 8 years we've rehearsed maybe three times.


Learn your parts, nail them when you get together and find another outlet for your new music jones is what I'd recommend. Personally I think not wanting to learn new music is lame but it sounds like you otherwise have a good thing going so why push it?

[Haysoochreesto]

Originally Posted by Crazyeelboy

1) He really wants to tighten up your act so that you do fewer songs but better - if this is the case, you should take this seriously and see if you can improve;

There is a bit of this going on but we're pretty tight as is. Of course there is always room for improvement; a little tighter on the ending of this song, a little more emphasis on X part of Y song. And that's cool. But we do a 4 hour rehearsal a week and working on something new for the first hour isn't going to detract from making sure everything else is ship-shape.

2) He wants to focus the band into a certain genre - if this is the case, you should talk this out to see where he wants to go.

I'll ask him about this. If that is the case this will be the first we've heard about it. But really, when we all talk, one of the things we agree that's good about us is our versatility. The guy plays keyboard and sax, which adds dimension that almost no one else has. We can choose almost any popular song and unless the damn thing has a sitar or digereedo (sp?) in it, we can pull it off pretty respectably.

3) He wants more say in the material the band does. Song selection often becomes a big control issue in cover bands and he may be feeling a bit left out. If this is the case, bring him more into the process - his ego may need a bit of stroking.

But the last 3 songs we learned were his picks. He says, "I want to be playing sax more". So since its my turn to pick I ask him what he thinks about Modern Love by Bowie or Who can it be now by Men At Work or this or that or whatever. And he just kind of sh!tcans any ideas. So then we ask him very specifically what songs he would like to do, but we can never get a straight answer out of him.

4) He really wants to spend less time and effort on the band. If this is the case, you need to find out why he feels this way and whether this is just a passive way for him to ultimately quit the group.[/quote]

This is a possibility. I don't think he wants to quit but we've more or less come to the conclusion that he's satisfied with the amount and quality of our songs and he just doesn't care all that much to put the effort into the band like we had all been doing.

I really, really don't want to see him go. He's the best musician in the band, no doubt about it. Most experience, most knowledgeable, and a really cool guy as well. But he's really holding things up right now. Also, he's gonna go away for a few months this summer and we need to learn more songs so we can gig while he's away.

We just need to find a solution to this problem. I feel in a way like we're being held hostage.

[Brad Johnson]

IME a musician who can play and retain music is likely to be bored to death with a 4 hour a week rehearsal. I would be.

[Haysoochreesto]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I'm a firm believer in practicing at home and rehearsing when I get with other musicians. You can practice any new music you like at home. If you need a band rehearsal to be motivated to practice, that's an issue solely with you.

I disagree with you somewhat on that. If I had the time to go play in two bands, like some guys do, then it'd be cool. As it is, this is the only band I can play in and we'd always talked about putting together a 100+ song playlist. I understand that I can practice at home but it's so much better when there's a real purpose behind it.

...sounds like you otherwise have a good thing going so why push it?

This is the line we're walking right now. Our guitar player is being really pushy and I don't like that--and him and I are on the same side! OTOH, every single attempt to compromise and say "Okay then, why don't we just learn this one song, spend a little time on it, and swap it out for this other song that doesn't seem to do very well at gigs" is met with the same stonewalling.

Again, I don't want the situation to get ugly; I feel like we're really lucky to have gotten this far this fast. All of us get along, we hang out together sometimes, our kids play together. It's a great situation... hmm, maybe we should just lay back and not be so damn serious about the whole thing. Maybe he's just going through a phase right now and it'll pass.

If it's a case of him not wanting to play anymore, then we'll find out soon enough.

Thanks.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Haysoochreesto

I disagree with you somewhat on that. If I had the time to go play in two bands, like some guys do, then it'd be cool. As it is, this is the only band I can play in and we'd always talked about putting together a 100+ song playlist. I understand that I can practice at home but it's so much better when there's a real purpose behind it.

See, that's where we apparently see things differently. There absolutely is a real purpose to working stuff out on your own, whether you immediately end up playing it in a band situation or not. It can help make you a better musician/performer.

I'm not sure what playing in more than one band has to do with only being motivated at practice? You don't really need a 100 song playlist to do the gigs you're talking about. You also don't need to do any crowd killer or weak material, I agree with you on that.

This is the line we're walking right now. Our guitar player is being really pushy and I don't like that--and him and I are on the same side! OTOH, every single attempt to compromise and say "Okay then, why don't we just learn this one song, spend a little time on it, and swap it out for this other song that doesn't seem to do very well at gigs" is met with the same stonewalling.

Again, I don't want the situation to get ugly; I feel like we're really lucky to have gotten this far this fast. All of us get along, we hang out together sometimes, our kids play together. It's a great situation... hmm, maybe we should just lay back and not be so damn serious about the whole thing. Maybe he's just going through a phase right now and it'll pass.

If it's a case of him not wanting to play anymore, then we'll find out soon enough.

Thanks.

np.

Again, I find an unwillingness to learn new material to be lame. But no offense, I find four hour rehearsals to be lame too. That's about how long rehearsals are for marque artists with very complicated medleys and tons of choreography.

Play the songs you play and try to have fun doing it. I can guarantee that there are tons of guys here on TB alone who would love to have a gig that pays $350 no matter how limited the repertoire might seem to be.

[FunkMetalBass]

Continue to choose songs that don't have him in it until he decides he's ready to play again.

Business is business.

[EddiePlaysBass]

Perhaps 4 hours a week rehearsals are weighing too heavily on his agenda ? You should perhaps take a step back and evaluate how you spend these four hours, and what modifications could be made to reduce the rehearsal time and increase the rehearsal efficiency ?

I once went to an audition that ended up being about 4 hours long. After every song or two, the drummer would get tired and need a breather. After every six or so songs, they'd want to take a break and hang a bit. After a few of these breaks, they'd scout eBay for motocycles ... All the while I was there being thoroughly fed up since I didn't want to go in the first place (it was a favour to my dad, who was friends with the stepdad of one of the guys).

[Haysoochreesto]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

See, that's where we apparently see things differently. There absolutely is a real purpose to working stuff out on your own, whether you immediately end up playing it in a band situation or not. It can help make you a better musician/performer.

I understand what you're saying but for me personally, learning new things, not just in music, but in life in general is just something I do. In music specifically, it's important to me. It's what I enjoy and it's what I think is best for this band's viability for the time being.

In our neck of the woods, the best cover bands have playlists with as many 1,000 songs--at least that they boast of on their websites. But even if that isn't accurate, when we go check out our best competition, they're playing something different at every single gig. These are the guys that have consistent paying gigs at the same place every night of the week. I don't care to have a playlist more than 100 songs but for me a band that is continually evolving and getting better is what keeps me interested.

[quote] I find four hour rehearsals to be lame too.{/quote]

I disagree. We've worked really hard to put together a viable product that people will come to see (at least so far). When we get to rehearsal we all know our stuff and there's some dicking around but mostly it's business. And no one has complained about rehearsal time.

I also think that if you're going to haul your stuff somewhere once a week, set it up, and then practice an hour or so a day, in order to be ready; and then take it down, put it in the car, drive home, and then put it all away, that 1 four hour block of time isn't that much of a sacrifice.

Play the songs you play and try to have fun doing it. I can guarantee that there are tons of guys here on TB alone who would love to have a gig that pays $350 no matter how limited the repertoire might seem to be.

I agree. That's why I'm trying to find some kind of balance here in order that everyone be accomodated. I realize how fortunate to be in the situation that I am. But it seems to be changing and I don't want to see it go down the crapper.

[bongomania]

When I saw the thread title I thought you were going to talk about Bruce Lindfield!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Haysoochreesto

I understand what you're saying but for me personally, learning new things, not just in music, but in life in general is just something I do. In music specifically, it's important to me. It's what I enjoy and it's what I think is best for this band's viability for the time being.

Not sure I see where the "but" comes in. You mentioned learning in conjunction with not having time to play in two bands.

In our neck of the woods, the best cover bands have playlists with as many 1,000 songs--at least that they boast of on their websites. But even if that isn't accurate, when we go check out our best competition, they're playing something different at every single gig. These are the guys that have consistent paying gigs at the same place every night of the week. I don't care to have a playlist more than 100 songs but for me a band that is continually evolving and getting better is what keeps me interested.

No offense but are you sure you aren't exaggerating? How do you know what they play at every single gig, particularly if they play every night of the week?

When it comes to covers, if everyone is up on their instruments it really shouldn't be hard to come up with a list of 100's of songs to play without having to have played them before... aka no rehearsal. Pick a key and run with it. Just play them like the record, have someone lead it if you decide to take things in another direction. Are you guys at that point?

I disagree. We've worked really hard to put together a viable product that people will come to see (at least so far). When we get to rehearsal we all know our stuff and there's some dicking around but mostly it's business. And no one has complained about rehearsal time.

Cool. I expected you'd disagree with that. The problem is, you aren't the one refusing to add new music. Think he disagrees too? So... the guy who doesn't want to do new songs enjoys spending four hours going over the songs you guys already know cold? Again?

Okay.


Again, no offense but if you all know your stuff as you say and you know the music and you aren't adding new music, what exactly are you doing for four hours a week?

I also think that if you're going to haul your stuff somewhere once a week, set it up, and then practice an hour or so a day, in order to be ready; and then take it down, put it in the car, drive home, and then put it all away, that 1 four hour block of time isn't that much of a sacrifice.

It is if you're just doing the SOS each week. IMO IME. I don't rehearse that much on gigs with people I've never played with before. You guys play together all the time.

I agree. That's why I'm trying to find some kind of balance here in order that everyone be accomodated. I realize how fortunate to be in the situation that I am. But it seems to be changing and I don't want to see it go down the crapper.

Then you either don't rock the boat or simply ask the guy what his mindset is. Don't want to do new music? Cool... why? Specifically? Is he cool with coming together once a week to do the same stuff you've been doing? Simple polite questions along those lines could put an end to guessing or wondering what's really going on.

I'm used to the exact opposite. Someone suggests we do a new song, we figure out how to do it. More often than not, not a word is spoken, we just do it. I play with musicians who will play a song we've never played together before... live. That spontaneity can be a lot of fun... or it can scare the crap out of some people.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Haysoochreesto

....he's gonna go away for a few months this summer and we need to learn more songs so we can gig while he's away.

Seems like to me that there's a start on what's really going on.

He's happy with a static 50 song set list and rehearsing/practicing less or not at all because he has other things going on in his life.

Maybe he's thinking: "If you can make $350 a weekend with the tunes you have, why spend tons of hours working on new stuff?"

Or maybe he's thinking that when he's gone for a few months you'll have to gig w/o him so what's the big deal?

Or maybe he only wants to be in the band on his terms?

My question is: if you can rearrange your tunes for only one guitar, why not do it now?

You'll make more $$ with less members and if the remaining members are on the same page, you won't have to have any more discussions about this topic.

[tycobb73]

This is a business. Treat it as such. As democratic as you want to be, there has to be a leader and a majority that wants to follow him. If the minority won't go along, you have to drop the minority. The most important thing for a band or any business is that top to bottom everyone is on the same page.

[AfroCubanFunkMa]

Originally Posted by tycobb73

The most important thing for a band or any business is that top to bottom everyone is on the same page.

Hence the reason most bands are NOT run as a democracy.. in most cases the easiest path is one where ONE leader steers the direction of the band and the others fall in line with his/her vision.

But once in a great while you get a situation where a core few.. (rarely see more than 3) are on the page enough and have complete RESPECT for each other, COMMUNICATE EFFECTIVELY, can compensate for each others' WEAKNESSES and take FULL ADVANTAGE of EACH OTHERS' STRENGTHS.

Add in that you LIKE to hang out with each other and play music that "Thrills You" and you have the best of all worlds..

[Sartori]

Learn more songs that don't include him. If he doesn't want to learn new music, he doesn't have to. But he won't be playing any of it, either.

And as AfroCubanFunkMa says, lots of bands aren't run as democracies. Mine has sometimes been somewhat democratic, but at this point the management of the band is a semi-unequal partnership with the guitarist, with me having the ultimate say.

[Phantasm]

So basically, you're upset because:

1) you want to learn way more songs than you'll ever practically need (or everyone can remember, causing issues when someone calls out a song that hasn't been played in a while and someone forgets it.)

2) you want to practice them so much that you hate them and remove all excitement from playing them.

3) playing 2-3 shows a week @ $350 a show isn't enough "paid practice" for you with playing these songs.

Please take no offense... but it sounds like you're picking a fight over nothing. Learn 2-3 songs a month on a pace that everyone's comfortable with and enjoy the ride on the gig and money train, my friend.

[Mo'Phat]

I, for one, totally get where the other guy is coming from. He worked his butt off to master 50 songs, and now he wants the band to perfect them and to make their stage show amazing...but the band is telling him he needs to learn more songs? Why?

Why not improve your stage show, crowd interaction, and tightness for awhile...at least until THAT part of your performance is as good as it can be...Then you can start introducing new material.

Learning new songs is easy, perfecting them and building them into a top-notch show is hard. OP, are you seeking the easier path and the other guy is picking the harder path? Maybe HE is just as frustrated with YOU because all you want to do is wank off and learn new songs, while he wants to work harder at making the stuff you already know better.

My 2 cents worth of Devil's advocacy.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Crazyeelboy

1) He really wants to tighten up your act so that you do fewer songs but better - if this is the case, you should take this seriously and see if you can improve

Similar to mophat above... I have played this role in a couple of band situations before. Certain members want to learn new material and my comeback always is, "once we play the songs we've already got correctly -- every time -- then we can take on some new ones." In fact, I'm the one in my band responsible for putting our setlists together and I have actually taken songs off our list that we repeatedly butcher, and when someone in the band finally notices and asks me where that song went I just say, "when everyone in this band can play that song correctly, it will go back into the show. Until then, we're done with it."

50 songs done darn near perfectly trumps 70 done half-assed, every time.

"Improving the show" could also mean reducing the amount of dead air between songs, re-ordering the setlist so the show flows better, improving the banter with the audience, better sound/lighting, etc. or all of the above. To me these are all signs of "progress" in a band just as much as -- if not more than -- just adding more songs to the list of "Songs We (Sorta) Know".