Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[ACalbass]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

A poster just said "its a problem when EVERYTHING is what the bar owner wants..."

The minute you take money for services, it IS everything they want. When you are paying the bill or you are doing it for free then you get some say. Want it your way? Have shows in your basement.

Sorry,but what you saying is the same to say "we have no choice but to accept slavery,simply because they make the rules,if you are not a slave,you are nothing"
Or to accept oppression and anarchy from your government.
Your are not even asking "what can we do",you are just accepting what you are told.

Believe me,you might not feel like fighting this war and feel defeated already,but that is not all of us.
You have choices but you deny the merits,you think a bar owner will tell the same story to Tom petty? he he
No,is telling you,knowing you will accept his word as true.

I gave you a choice : make yourself a musician people want to employ,to pay to see and hear,then you will have the only say.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by jive1

To me, one of the main issues is that often neither party spells out what is expected and what they are paying for. You don't see this happening in many other businesses other than music.

Great point Jive.

I think, if you take anything away from the open letter or this discussion, it should be clear that an honest heart-to-heart with the venue owner along the lines of "what do you need from us, how can we help you succeed" will only endear the band to that owner. Once he sees you're in his corner and share his goals for a successful evening and a win-win, he sees you in an entirely different light. Some of the specifics may apply differently depending on the club, but just letting him know you have his interests in mind as well as your own goes a long way.

If the owner appreciates this (which the overwhelming majority do in my experience), playing this game can only help you leap frog over bands that don't do it and help ensure you always have a place to practice your craft, "art," whatever you want to call it.

Several examples of this appear on this thread and the other one titled It works! Open letter..... part 2

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

A poster just said "its a problem when EVERYTHING is what the bar owner wants..."

The minute you take money for services, it IS everything they want. When you are paying the bill or you are doing it for free then you get some say. Want it your way? Have shows in your basement.

I'm certain Tom means "everything within reason." Comments about bar owners being slave masters and raping the lead singer are just, again, ridiculous. Tom meant nothing of the sort. C'mon people.

[Masai40]

Very interesting read. I frequent a bar in Massachusetts that is well known primarily for playing jazz music. They are close by Berkley college of music and I have been going there for over 20 years. The place is very very small. It attracts the absolute best young musicians and players...Ironically enough more established players who will play at larger venues such as Regatta Bar, Scullers etc... will often stop by and sit in with the band. Additionally, Berkley professors from bassist, guitarist, wind players ... frequent the joint. The main draw of this establishment is its history and tradition. I know the owners very well and they don't charge a cover and are relying on customers buying drinks. I can't tell you how much it irks them when other musicians who also frequent the place come by and check out the latest bassist, guitarist etc... and nurse a coke or a budweiser while they listen to the latest phenom.

I go there for the music and I always make it a point to buy some members of the band a drink and not a coke or a budweiser. I have always known that in order to continue listening to music at this level that there is a quid pro quo to this scenario. Nothing is free...musicians who sometime make up a good portion of the audience need to be aware of this.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by BIG97BEN

Well it's not rocket science. If you think bars are morally corrupt then don't take gigs playing them. As a bass player and someone who used to manage bars, more gigs for us and less people for bar managers to deal with to make them stereotype all of us.

This I don't get either. You have people expanding on how disgusting and immoral bars and their owners are--yet they play music in bars. ???

You feel that strongly? Stay out of bars! Duh. Why compromise your integrity willingly and intentionally, and then gripe about it? That makes no sense. Anyone who has that violent of a reaction to the concept of someone selling alcohol to make a living and hiring entertainment to help him in his efforts should not compromise their beliefs by playing music in a venue that serves alcohol. And then come complain about it on the internet? Seriously?

[scorpionldr]

I think it's good

[RS]

I agree with most of the letter until "I don’t care if you’re bald, a baseball cap is unacceptable. Live music is a visual form of entertainment. If you dress well, even if it’s hipster, funky, weird or flamboyant, as long as you look like you care about your appearance, and show a little self respect, you’ll go over better with my customers."
Dressing "well" is very subjective. "Hipster, funky, weird, and flamboyant" is ok but not a baseball hat at his bar? Not sure I follow.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by RS

Dressing "well" is very subjective. "Hipster, funky, weird, and flamboyant" is ok but not a baseball hat at his bar? Not sure I follow.

Maybe he just has a weird, funky, hipster bar? That's how I read it.

[ChrisB2]

Yeah, I definitely agreed with the baseball cap comment. Except in rare cases of obtaining a particular look on the right person, in the right band, playing a particular genre , baseball caps on stage just look bush league and unprofessional. Same goes for cargo shorts.

IMO of course.....

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by BIG97BEN

Well it's not rocket science. If you think bars are morally corrupt then don't take gigs playing them. As a bass player and someone who used to manage bars, more gigs for us and less people for bar managers to deal with to make them stereotype all of us.

No kidding! If more high-minded artistes would stick to their principles, there might be a lot more work for hacks like me, who just want to entertain people & make them happy for a little while!

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Yeah, I definitely agreed with the baseball cap comment. Except in rare cases of obtaining a particular look on the right person, in the right band, playing a particular genre , baseball caps on stage just look bush league and unprofessional. Same goes for cargo shorts.

IMO of course.....

Well, evidently it's not only your opinion. I know several bar owners who feel the same way.

I also know several bar owners to whom it doesn't matter.

Point being: Bar owners may be slightly more in touch with the dress code they are wanting to promote in their club than the band is. Ask them about it. Take their suggestions seriously. They may think a certain look is unprofessional or inappropriate. Come strolling in there looking that way, you probably ain't scoring no style points with your employer (assuming getting asked back is a goal for you and your band).

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by jive1

...

To me, one of the main issues is that often neither party spells out what is expected and what they are paying for. You don't see this happening in many other businesses other than music.

You are, of course, correct. However, the moment anything that smacks of "business" is introduced, it pollutes the purity of the "art".

[Disaster Area]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

We have different definitions of "art" and "artist." I don't think I would necessarily catagorize an actor as an "artist." An "artist" creates "art," an "actor" is simply the entertainment vehicle that puts the "art" across.

In the music world, there are "artists" who create, and most cover bands are simply entertainers copying the art and putting it across, more like "actors."

Purely semantic and subjective, I don't think I'll waste another key stroke addressing it. A cover band certainly is not executing some higher form of original expression even close to the level they would need to get so puffed up they don't want to take a few extra steps to help the bar owner succeed. And that applies not only to light MC duties, but to the various other aspects of professionalism pointed out in the open letter.

To be honest, I could not disagree more with this statement. Actors, at least good ones, will bring new insight into a role they are portraying. Their job isn't simply to parrot what is on the page--it's their job to interpret and convey the words on a screenplay in a human and believable way. Different actors will portray the same role in completely different ways; in fact, even a single actor's performance from take to take can be incredibly varied and insightful.

In the same way, every time a musician covers a song, they are always bringing something of their own musicianship to the piece--even if they are trying their best to impersonate the original musician. That's not even counting the musicians who will take a piece and completely re-imagine it in a new light. Music is about more than just writing--it's about expressing and performing. It is fluid, and every single performance a musician makes of a piece is unique and brings something new to the table.

That's my view, at least. Mimicry and inspiration are impossible to avoid in any form of art, and it's what you bring to the table that counts. Now many cover artists don't bring much to the table, but that doesn't meant they're not artists--it just means they are uninspired and bad artists.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Big Brother

Perfect example. There is a small, struggling bar here in SD that constantly advertises for bands in CL, doesn't pay them, is barely making money and staying afloat. Another idiot businessman with '3 minutes of experience,' right?

This bar is run by a guy who also operates the towns most successful beach rental and it is widely known to anyone who visits SD. He also runs a chain of jewelry stores in town and is widely respected here. SD members know exactly who I am talking about.

He worked 30 years to learn business and sunk over a million bucks into that dive bar because he likes live music and wanted to create a venue for local bands to play. What an a-hole!

Yes... and I knew a couple guys who owned a boat load of Domino's pizza stores.

They were very good businessmen WHILE RUNNING THEIR PIZZA STORES.

They also owned a comic book/trading card shop. They owned because they wanted to create a venue for comic book and card geeks.

Problem was - they ran it like a hobby instead of a business. They were good successful businessmen, but the card store was not run as a business.

If their management activities would keep them employed in an industry OUTSIDE the bar and restaurant world - they're good at business.

...but in my experience, most bar owners would quickly be fired if they were managing another persons business the way they run their own.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

You might be talking about the average bar owner in your area or your experience, but you most certainly are not talking about the average bar owner in my area and my experience.

I'd say your area is significantly different than most.

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Then again, me and my bands don't work with hacks. I can say with confidence that the bar owners I work with are almost always sharp-minded, shrewd, and savvy business people.

Then I'm willing to bet they aren't the average.

Originally Posted by electracoyote

They've been in a tough business, succesfully, for many years, sometimes decades,

...and then you prove they aren't average.

The "average" bar nationwide doesn't even stay in business a couple years.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by electracoyote View Post
We have different definitions of "art" and "artist." I don't think I would necessarily catagorize an actor as an "artist." An "artist" creates "art," an "actor" is simply the entertainment vehicle that puts the "art" across.

In the music world, there are "artists" who create, and most cover bands are simply entertainers copying the art and putting it across, more like "actors."

Purely semantic and subjective, I don't think I'll waste another key stroke addressing it. A cover band certainly is not executing some higher form of original expression even close to the level they would need to get so puffed up they don't want to take a few extra steps to help the bar owner succeed. And that applies not only to light MC duties, but to the various other aspects of professionalism pointed out in the open letter.

I reckon this logic would leave classical musicians in the same category as a bar band. Perhaps even jazz and/or blues musicians covering standards too.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by aborgman

I'd say your area is significantly different than most.





Then I'm willing to bet they aren't the average.



...and then you prove they aren't average.

Exactly.

You always have the choice of determining if a bar owner is worth your time and effort. That's a perfectly acceptable and understandable business model. If they are as retched as you seem to think, why bother? If I took that dim of a view of barkeeps, I'd avoid them and find some other way to get my yah yahs out musically. Otherwise, you just sound like a whiner or a hypocrite.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by pedro

I reckon this logic would leave classical musicians in the same category as a bar band. Perhaps even jazz and/or blues musicians covering standards too.

I never said they weren't talented entertainers with much to offer an audience.

[bigsnaketex]

In my world, we have "mainstream" bars where "mainstream" bands play.

Of course, we have them somewhat segregated by genre: Blues, classic rock, heavy metal, bluegrass, country, etc. (with some crossover between the larger venues)

Then we have several "hip" places where the more "experimental" bands play. These are always younger folks who play a looser style that defies any of the traditional categories of music for the most part.

Because I live in a university town, we have a lot of this. These type bands make very little money and the places they play seem to close down with very high regularity and then open up again in another location.

So for me, playing in (or owning) an "experamental music venue" not a very viable business option. But several of these type folks that own these places somehow must be OK with the idea because they keep doing it!

And I'll admit that I do go and hear some of these bands but that is certainly not my "cup of tea" for the most part. But I certainly catergorize it as "art" - and that's OK too - "art for art's sake"!!

But the bottom line is that all bars are in it to make money and they use the loyal followers of bands to draw in customers to buy drinks and food. You can be the best musician in the world but if no one comes to see you, the bar owners are not gonig to be interesting in having you set up on their stage and play.

And while I do miss the "teen center" scene of my youth where the city and the radio stations put on "band competitions" every weekend to give an outlet for young bands - that scene left decades ago and now it's all for money. And not money for the bands but for the venue owners!!

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Disaster Area

Now many cover artists don't bring much to the table, but that doesn't meant they're not artists--it just means they are uninspired and bad artists.

I'll buy into your definition of "artist" just long enough to say, you hit the nail on the head.

My band and I play very faithful versions of songs, to the delight of our audiences. I'm no artist. I'm a damn good entertainer though.