Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[SquierJazz72]

Not that long a read, and a good one.
Relationships are usually key to anything.
Build good relationships with people you work
on behalf of, you'll likely be working steady.

Build bad ones, you're probably sunk.
Dead in the water.
That's a pretty simple equation.

[ssabass]

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

Not that long a read, and a good one.
Relationships are usually key to anything.
Build good relationships with people you work
on behalf of, you'll likely be working steady.

Build bad ones, you're probably sunk.
Dead in the water.
That's a pretty simple equation.

I've read most of the comments here (and the article) I think you've summed it up for the most part!

[SquierJazz72]

I've read most of the comments here (and the article) I think you've summed it up for the most part!

I guess if there's one thing I clearly understand, it's those personal relationships. I try to get along with people whenever I can anyway, especially if I am going to be working with them.

But being in and from a small area when I was in my first bands, I knew all the local bar owners on a first name basis. Some were friends. The rest I at least had amicable relationships with. And I knew at least one or two members of the all other local bands as well.

In fact, knowing those band members served me really well one night. But that's another story.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

Great point Jive.

I think, if you take anything away from the open letter or this discussion, it should be clear that an honest heart-to-heart with the venue owner along the lines of "what do you need from us, how can we help you succeed" will only endear the band to that owner. Once he sees you're in his corner and share his goals for a successful evening and a win-win, he sees you in an entirely different light. Some of the specifics may apply differently depending on the club, but just letting him know you have his interests in mind as well as your own goes a long way.

If the owner appreciates this (which the overwhelming majority do in my experience), playing this game can only help you leap frog over bands that don't do it and help ensure you always have a place to practice your craft, "art," whatever you want to call it.

I think the issue is that expectations and the ability to deliver on them aren't always made clear. Lots of the issues that both sides deal with can be resolved with clear and realistic expectations, and a real and honest assessment of whether you can deal with it. Bands are desperate to have places to play, so they fudge on things. Bars are looking for cheap/free labor so they fudge on things. Folks just need to be more honest and realistic about what they can provide each other.

From a detail perspective, one reason why I like contracts is that it spells out the details with some level of enforceability. Even if the contract isn't worth more than the paper it's written on, it still spells out things.

[SquierJazz72]

I think the issue is that expectations and the ability to deliver on them aren't always made clear.

That's an important part of it for me too. When either side, or both jump in too quickly it can definitely lead to letdowns, which probably is a prime source of the generalizations and stereotypes that seem to abound on both sides. If people were a little more careful with their dealings, maybe it wouldn't have to be like that.

[lizardwizard28]

Ive had good experiences with a particular venue that my former band gigged at a lot. The woundguy was part owner (and a very good soundman at that) so the bar wasnt out much money buy "hiring" us. We drew a good crowd, charged a small cover to pay ourselves, and if the bar did well, they would throw us money, usually $200-300. We'd usually walk out with between $600-1000 split 4ways. Most of the time it was alot of fun and a win win for a 3 1/2 hour gig. We were far from the best, but we kept getting called back. I agree mostly with the barowner.

[Low Sound Love]

I used to think that originals bands in Europe were at disadvantage in comparison to their U.S. brethren, but nowadays I'm tilting the other way. This tread = confirmation.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Low Sound Love

I used to think that originals bands in Europe were at disadvantage in comparison to their U.S. brethren, but nowadays I'm tilting the other way. This tread = confirmation.

Why was that, exactly? Genuinely curious

[Bisounourse]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Why was that, exactly? Genuinely curious

Well, he lives in the same city as me, so I think I can answer for him

Here we have an idea that there are far more clubs/bars/... in the US to promote 'originals acts'. But looking at this thread it doesn't really seem that way. Originals bands have their own places, but they don't seem to have a lot of bars to play in them (because they will cost money to the bar owner).

In our city (Ghent) there are alot of smaller bars/clubs that will book originals bands and the owners don't complain. But some of those clubs receive cultural funding to let those bands play, so the bar patron won't loose any money to let those bands play. (And I've seen some fairly good gigs).

[jmattbassplaya]

I think it just depends on the city. It's weird, but people often seem to forget just how big the US is. Some areas like my own seem very receptive to originals bands, whereas others won't let them play unless they already have a huge following.

[Low Sound Love]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Why was that, exactly? Genuinely curious

Well, the U.S. is of course a bigger market then the very fragmented European musical landscape, and I used to think that because of the bigger market there would also be more venues and more playing opportunities in the U.S. for (starting) originals bands that are trying to get their music heard.

Now I'm thinking that over here in Belgium, beginning originals bands or bands that aren't aiming to 'conquer the world' but are still putting some effort in can get many chances to play, possibly more than in the U.S.
There are many bars, youth centres and local festivals that are willing to give originals bands a gig based on not much more than a demo recording, and by far less of the 'you gotta make us money or no gig' attitude I hear and read about here. Of course, we get paid only modest sums (in my case €150 for a 50 minute set, but we do it for less too).

Also the 'cover bands at bars' thing is way different here. Cover bands mostly play as background music at bigger events, they're not hired as a means to draw folks into a bar. There's a lot less competition between the originals and the cover bands, I think people are not as interested in cover bands here. The cover bands do get paid substantially more, but that's because they usually play for much larger crowds.

Just some personal observations. I might have it all wrong anyway

[Low Sound Love]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I think it just depends on the city. It's weird, but people often seem to forget just how big the US is. Some areas like my own seem very receptive to originals bands, whereas others won't let them play unless they already have a huge following.

That's probably true, but when I'm reading this forum it kinda sounds like those 'receptive areas' are few and far between

[Bisounourse]

Originally Posted by Low Sound Love

Also the 'cover bands at bars' thing is way different here. Cover bands mostly play as background music at bigger events, they're not hired as a means to draw folks into a bar. There's a lot less competition between the originals and the cover bands, I think people are not as interested in cover bands here. The cover bands do get paid substantially more, but that's because they usually play for much larger crowds.

That. If a bar has a cover band playing it is something as an extra for that night. It is not really a way to gather more people, but more of an extra service to the customer.

Besides, over here in Belgium we drink when we go to a bar and there is no need to push specials, because most of the time the customer will have seen it and will take advantage of it. (I mean, last time it was La Chouffe on tap for 2 €).

[MarkMgibson]

It doesn't happen here either - bands are rarely asked to stop and give commercials for the club. I've been asked to do this twice - I declined both times, and still play at both places regularly.

Next thing you know, the owner will be asking the bands to pick up a mop at the end of the night, or perhaps you should serve drinks between sets - is that really any less ridiculous? Where does it end?

[Edward G.]

^^
The most effective sales people are those who do it without being obvious about what they're doing. No lies, no false promises. When they're done, you WANT to spend your money—not because they want you to, but because YOU want to. That's what it's all about. I think it's at an extremely high level of polish and showmanship.

[Factor88]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

It doesn't happen here either - bands are rarely asked to stop and give commercials for the club. I've been asked to do this twice - I declined both times, and still play at both places regularly.

Next thing you know, the owner will be asking the bands to pick up a mop at the end of the night, or perhaps you should serve drinks between sets - is that really any less ridiculous? Where does it end?

So when there is a party of thirty in the bar celebrating someone's retirement, and these people ask you to announce it with a congratulations, you don't do it, right? After all, where would it end? Next thing you know they'll be asking you to contribute to the guy's retirement account, or mow his lawn on weekends, etc. etc.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

It doesn't happen here either - bands are rarely asked to stop and give commercials for the club. I've been asked to do this twice - I declined both times, and still play at both places regularly.

Really.... Wow. No offense, but that strikes me as extremely arrogant.

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Next thing you know, the owner will be asking the bands to pick up a mop at the end of the night, or perhaps you should serve drinks between sets

No he won't.

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

is that really any less ridiculous? Where does it end?

You meant to say "Is that really any more ridiculous," and yes, it's much, MUCH more ridiculous. Mentioning a drink special or any other similar, ordinary announcement, like a birthday, is nothing at all like being asked to mop up.

[noeinstein]

Originally Posted by NWB

This brings up a certain point I saw in the other related thread. In that one, there was some discussion of draw and how many people your band can bring in. What if your draw is mostly people like me that don't drink very much. Not much profit to be had in a crowd of non or light drinkers.

Rather than selling your band on what you can draw, maybe try marketing yourself on drink sales. After your show, ask the venue owner how drink sales were compared to other acts and then use that to either a) figure out how to sell more drinks, or b) give the increased sales figures to other venue owner for band marketing.

I think this may be part of the "trade secret."

[Edward G.]

Originally Posted by noeinstein

I think this may be part of the "trade secret."

I once played a place that paid you a percentage of drink sales after you went on. They showed us the starting amount, so we would know it. Fully expecting to get cheated, we just went about our business and did our usual thing, which we were convinced was better than the usual they got. Well, lo and behold, at the end of the night, amidst a still-full house, we were presented with a payout that greatly exceeded everyone's expectations. We were stunned.

Just think of what might have happened if we had taken that partnership more seriously and promoted the club even a little more.

Stuff like that is important.

[TRichardsbass]

In the US most clubs that have original bands live off the cover charge and are usually very small places. Average cover is $10 and bands get $2 or $3 for each person who pays the cover and says they are there to see you. Big headlining acts get $3-$5 of every cover and the bar owner gets the other $2-$4. So if 50 people walk through the door he already has $100 to $200 in profit. Or he has at least paid for the cost of his bartender and will make money on the drinks from the get go.

The hardest part for this type of club is to build a scene. If you do like CBGBs back in the day the potential to make bank is huge. But most are lucky if they have a big night twice a month. The internet and YouTube have talen a chunk from these guys. In the old days they were the only good way of getting heard. Now you dont really need 'em.

I am as most know an original artist. I have zero problem mentioning drink specials or reminding the fans to take care of the bartender. Like I said its worked into the inbetween song banter like a good story. It actually can be better then some of the noodling while you are wating for the guitard to retune is G string for the hundreth time.