Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Really.... Wow. No offense, but that strikes me as extremely arrogant.



No he won't.



You meant to say "Is that really any more ridiculous," and yes, it's much, MUCH more ridiculous. Mentioning a drink special or any other similar, ordinary announcement, like a birthday, is nothing at all like being asked to mop up.

Why does that strike you as arrogant? I'm paid to play music, not to do adverts for the club. As for your little grammar lesson, that was just obnoxious, although I'm sure you thought it very clever. Let's stick to the subject, shall we?

[Edward G.]

Not necessarily arrogant, but a little unaware of the ecology.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by Edward G.

Not necessarily arrogant, but a little unaware of the ecology.

The "ecology" where you live, perhaps, which I did make quite clear. It's not the "ecology" here.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by Factor88

So when there is a party of thirty in the bar celebrating someone's retirement, and these people ask you to announce it with a congratulations, you don't do it, right? After all, where would it end? Next thing you know they'll be asking you to contribute to the guy's retirement account, or mow his lawn on weekends, etc. etc.

That's an entirely different thing, and not even very clever on your part. No wonder your eyes are rolling.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Why does that strike you are arrogant. I'm paid to play music, not to do adverts for the club. What the hell is arrogant about that?

Because the tale fits the definition of the word.

ar·ro·gant
/ˈarəgənt/
Adjective
Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
Synonyms
haughty - proud - conceited - supercilious - lofty


Your post had the tone of "to make announcements is beneath me." To decline a simple request from your employer to make a simple announcement shows, IMO, somewhat of a lack of humility. And then to compare making an announcement to "mopping up" as if mopping up in itself is a demeaning task implies a certain haughtiness.

You may not be an arrogant person, but the tone of the words you're posting indicates the quality and if I were the bar owner in that exchange, I would've felt that you were being arrogant. Maybe you don't realize you're coming off that way to people...... ??

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

I don't hear anyone on this thread making such a claim seriously.

Originally Posted by Big Brother

The bar owner spent $250K+ and probably many more years learning and perfecting the art of business to one day open that club and build a stage.

That was the original post I responded to.

Originally Posted by electracoyote

The rational voices are saying the same thing: The average bar owner is trying to keep his head above water, he hopes that his employees (including his entertainment) can help him achieve that goal. If he has suggestions to that affect, he's worth listening to, even if you don't respect him or his business acumen. You're still working for him, and critiqueing him is pointless.

No disagreement. I have no problems being a beer whore, announcing drink specials, or anything else. We go out of our way to solicit input from owners on what we can do to make them more money.

...and whatever the guy signing the check wants, I'll do.

I just wish that more than about 2% of them had the competence to actually run their business well, didn't often sabotage their own product, had an actual answer to "what can we do to make you more money?", and just generally behaved in a manner that would be considered professional (not spectacular - merely adequately professional) in ANY other occupation.

If the folks running your average bar adhered to the same level of professional and business knowledge/conduct as your average convenience store owner - we wouldn't see half these threads.

[BawanaRik]

People have mentioned non-drinking options for playing. IE renting a place and putting on a show and basically, so to speak, wear the producers hat.

This is an option. When I was younger I would guys like Roy Bookbinder in the basements of old churches or other booze free establishments. Although if you knew Roy they're weren't booze free for him. I saw Danny Kalb with 3 or 4 other people in the audience in a church in Rockaway. There was a snow storm and not only didn't the audience show up neither did his band.

None of these guys were getting rich but they were getting their music out there. Learning to set up a deal to play is valuable skill set that will open doors. Literally and figuratively.

All this during the hey day of bar bands during the brief flirtation we had with an 18 yo drinking age. I can't help but think it's a paradigm that should well be explored.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

I think that letter was great for anyone wondering (1) Why they aren't getting booked as much as they like and (2) wanting to get booked more and (3) willing to make the adult good business move and actually TALK to a bar owner and ASK questions like "how can we increase our odds with you?"

If you don't have those issues or you're unwilling to do business that way, the suggestions on this thread are lost on you. Not judging you, just saying, not all advice is right for all people.

And if and when you talk with the bar owner, ask him what you can do on stage to help him have a successful evening. Ask him, if you help him sell more alcohol, will that help? Is he concerned about appearance? Is there anything else his top bands do that he wishes all bands would do that would help him meet his goals. Let him tell you.

Then decide if you can live with that. If not, move along, this is not the bar for you.

The biggest problem is that, in my experience, most bar owners don't even know the answer to those questions themselves.

We ask those and similar questions - and the great majority of the time the answer is "I don't know"

[Low Sound Love]

Maybe his analogy was a little off, but I understand how MarkM feels, I wouldn't want to make 'commercial announcements' in the midst of my set either. To me that would feel as a lack of respect for what we're trying to do there. Luckily, we've never been asked and I don't see that ever happening either. It's just not something that's done around here.
All this further confirms my impression that our views on live music and originals bands are quite different.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Because the tale fits the definition of the word.

ar·ro·gant
/ˈarəgənt/
Adjective
Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.
Synonyms
haughty - proud - conceited - supercilious - lofty


Your post had the tone of "to make announcements is beneath me." To decline a simple request from your employer to make a simple announcement shows, IMO, somewhat of a lack of humility. And then to compare making an announcement to "mopping up" as if mopping up in itself is a demeaning task implies a certain haughtiness.

You may not be an arrogant person, but the tone of the words you're posting indicates the quality and if I were the bar owner in that exchange, I would've felt that you were being arrogant. Maybe you don't realize you're coming off that way to people...... ??

Thank-you for explaining the word "arrogant" to me, which was extremely arrogant on your part.

I didn't say making announcements was "beneath me", nor "mopping the floor" for that matter. I just said it's not what I was hired to do. I don't wait tables, serve drinks, work as a bouncer, or do the accounts at the end of night either - I'm just hired to play music, and that's what I do. As I also said, I'm not required to do those things either, though I understand that may be different depending on where you live.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by aborgman

The biggest problem is that, in my experience, most bar owners don't even know the answer to those questions themselves.

Not necessarily.......I would say that by the the tone of this thread, "the biggest problem" is that musicians don't understand that the reason they are hired is to help the bar make money.

I honestly don't get why that is such a tough concept for so many here to grasp.

[TRichardsbass]

Low Sound, what exactly is it you "are trying to do?" That is the club owners point. Its not about what you are trying to do, its about what he needs you to do.

The minute you think its about you you miss his point.

I know a band here who drew oodles on a Sunday night for almost a decade. Of late they still drew okay but bar sales were way down. Bar owner had to stop the Sunday night gig and even he was upset because the band was great both musically and personally. But he just couldnt justify the cost.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Thank-you for explaining the word "arrogant" to me, which was extremely arrogant on your part.

I disagree, but it appears that my posts offended you, and for that I apologize. Not trying to start a fight or make enemies on TB...

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I didn't say making announcements was "beneath me", nor "mopping the floor" for that matter. I just said it's not what I was hired to do. I don't wait tables, serve drinks, work as a bouncer, or do the accounts at the end of night either - I'm just hired to play music, and that's what I do. As I also said, I'm not required to do those things either, though I understand that may be different depending on where you live.

I know you didn't "say" it was beneath you... but it appeared to me that your post, your tale, and the words you used IMPLIED a TONE that it was beneath you.

I guess we're just different... if a bar owner asked me to make an announcement, I would do it happily and I don't understand why it's so appalling to other people....

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

I disagree, but it appears that my posts offended you, and for that I apologize. Not trying to start a fight or make enemies on TB...



I know you didn't "say" it was beneath you... but it appeared to me that your post, your tale, and the words you used IMPLIED a TONE that it was beneath you.

I guess we're just different... if a bar owner asked me to make an announcement, I would do it happily and I don't understand why it's so appalling to other people....

No offence taken. I don't think it's "appalling"; I just said I won't do it. I appreciate the apology though, and likewise if I offended you.

[Bassorama57]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

People have mentioned non-drinking options for playing. IE renting a place and putting on a show and basically, so to speak, wear the producers hat.
I can't help but think it's a paradigm that should well be explored.

Agree. A Message to Club Owners

[pedro]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I think it just depends on the city. It's weird, but people often seem to forget just how big the US is. Some areas like my own seem very receptive to originals bands, whereas others won't let them play unless they already have a huge following.

I'm curious if you think the age of the audience is at least partially a factor? I'm not sure of your age, or the age of your audience but I live in a college town and the impression I have is that there are some venues for originals but they tend to cater to a younger crowd. The bars and grills that cater to middle aged folks tend to prefer covers.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by pedro

I'm curious if you think the age of the audience is at least partially a factor? I'm not sure of your age, or the age of your audience but I live in a college town and the impression I have is that there are some venues for originals but they tend to cater to a younger crowd. The bars and grills that cater to middle aged folks tend to prefer covers.

I know this a little off the point, but isn't the drinking age in many U.S States still 21? If so, that must make a huge difference, particularly in college towns.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I know this a little off the point, but isn't the drinking age in many U.S States still 21? If so, that must make a huge difference, particularly in college towns.

How so?

[bluewine]

I love the article, I get it and embrace it.

If anything, I will use some of the verbiage when I'm trying to book my band.

I want that owner to know I understand how his business works and we understand our role is to sell alcohol.

" Hi,

My name is blue. I represent the Acme Blues Band.

The reason for my call is to understand your booking process.

We have been successful over the last 6 years in helping businesses like yours sell more premium alcohol. "


Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

Not all music is business.

Hi Matt,

Unless your playing in the bedroom or garage to friends & family. When is music not business?

I'm sure it's not always business, any examples?

Blue