Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Factor88

Now I hire lots of contractors where I work, and I know the price schedules for them. With the exception of heavy duty IT and engineering positions, the entry level positions, but that still require a bachelor's degree, start at..you guessed it, 16 bucks an hour. And we find no shortages of college gradutes willing to work those positions.

With a guaranteed 40 hour work week.

There is your difference.

[YamahaJamBass]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Agreed. Music is a business. Profit is not evil. Want to "express yourself" or "share your art"? Rent a hall and throw your own show. The rest of us are trying to make some dough.

+1
That holds some truth. And truthfully I play for enjoyment and have a mighty fine day job. Renting a hall and throwing a party sounds like fun, might do that this summer. This way you could also weed out the morons that only want to hear skynrd, and that guy that has requests you don't care about.

[Factor88]

Originally Posted by aborgman

With a guaranteed 40 hour work week.

There is your difference.

Actually, no. About 30% of our contractors work part time (say in the 15-20 hour per week). They make the same hourly rate as the full timers.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Factor88

Actually, no. About 30% of our contractors work part time (say in the 15-20 hour per week). They make the same hourly rate as the full timers.

...but it's a guaranteed 15-20 with a specific salary up front.

Lets say you told the part timers it'd be 4 hours at a shot, a couple times a month.

Think you'd have to raise your rates to maintain the same quality of employee?

[Factor88]

Originally Posted by aborgman

...but it's a guaranteed 15-20 with a specific salary up front.

Lets say you told the part timers it'd be 4 hours at a shot, a couple times a month.

Think you'd have to raise your rates to maintain the same quality of employee?

I understand your point but if a band band is only playing 1-2 times per month they are either:

1) a hobby band for which money is not that important anyway (and thus irrelavent in terms of this discussion)

2) really, really, really bad (and thus irrelavent in terms of this discussion)

3) really , really really good, so good they only need to play a couple really high paying gigs per month. And then, they would be making much more than the $16 an hour we were discussing, and so again be irrelavent to this discussion.

[TRichardsbass]

I don't know what bars you play, but the average bar band in the Jersey Shore area is getting about $450 for a 4 piece plus one sound/roadie. So $90 a guy before taxes. Yep, its at least 6 hours in and out, so at best, before taxes, $15 an hour. Which for someone working for a business isn't bad. However, as a musician, you are a 1099 type guy, I know I am. So, first, the state gets 7% of that 90 (I don't know any club owner who pays $450 and the sales tax) so you are down to $83. Then there is your federal tax, lets say 15%, so now you are at $70. If you paid nothing else, that is now $11 per hour. Now that, I'm sure, doesn't sound as good as your college guys, as cooks do make around $10 an hour.

Either way, $450 a night is less then I was making in 1981 per gig at some of the worst bars. Times have changed, but even minimum wage has gone up since then. Just not band prices. And there are a lot more "hobbyists" today then there were then that now drive prices even lower.

I was laughing hysterically yesterday. Went to a bar to meet a friend. The band was a bunch of local guys I know who only do it for fun, and play mostly only Eagles and slow southern rock. My friend, who is also a "hobbyist" musician, spent most of the time telling me how bad the band was and how he can't believe how the music scene has gotten. I couldn't stop laughing, and when he asked I pulled out a vid on my phone of his "band" doing the same song, and it was as bad if not worse then the band we were listening to.

I told him I was laughing because he and his band are the reason the scene now sucks. If you could make a decent living doing it today, you would have better musicians competing for those gigs and making better money. Instead, I reminded him that he plays his local pub twice a month for $300 a night, three sets, so he set the pay and the standard for everyone else who wants to play at the pub.

You do get what you pay for. However, it does seem that musicians are the ones who get screwed the most, and the ones who screw each other the most.

I am getting back into the cover scene here with a band that does '80s dance pop and billboard hits. Black shirt skinny white tie, white shirt skinny black tie, red leather suit jackets, etc. We are rehearsing to start gigs up again in the late spring, already have a couple of events booked. We are getting a bit more to start, but that is because we have a rep for being able to draw and to sell booze. And, we aint that bad looking either, so we draw more then our fair share of single cougars, who draw more then their fair share of young, booze buying guys.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Factor88

I understand your point but if a band band is only playing 1-2 times per month they are either

Not only playing 1-2 times per month.

Playing 1-2 times per month - for a specific employer.

[pedro]

I don't know what bars you play, but the average bar band in the Jersey Shore area is getting about $450 for a 4 piece plus one sound/roadie. So $90 a guy before taxes. Yep, its at least 6 hours in and out, so at best, before taxes, $15 an hour. Which for someone working for a business isn't bad. However, as a musician, you are a 1099 type guy, I know I am. So, first, the state gets 7% of that 90 (I don't know any club owner who pays $450 and the sales tax) so you are down to $83. Then there is your federal tax, lets say 15%, so now you are at $70. If you paid nothing else, that is now $11 per hour. Now that, I'm sure, doesn't sound as good as your college guys, as cooks do make around $10 an hour.

You left off another 15% for social security and medicare taxes.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I don't know what bars you play, but the average bar band in the Jersey Shore area is getting about $450 for a 4 piece plus one sound/roadie. So $90 a guy before taxes. Yep, its at least 6 hours in and out, so at best, before taxes, $15 an hour. Which for someone working for a business isn't bad. However, as a musician, you are a 1099 type guy, I know I am. So, first, the state gets 7% of that 90 (I don't know any club owner who pays $450 and the sales tax) so you are down to $83. Then there is your federal tax, lets say 15%, so now you are at $70. If you paid nothing else, that is now $11 per hour. Now that, I'm sure, doesn't sound as good as your college guys, as cooks do make around $10 an hour.

Either way, $450 a night is less then I was making in 1981 per gig at some of the worst bars. Times have changed, but even minimum wage has gone up since then. Just not band prices. And there are a lot more "hobbyists" today then there were then that now drive prices even lower.

I was laughing hysterically yesterday. Went to a bar to meet a friend. The band was a bunch of local guys I know who only do it for fun, and play mostly only Eagles and slow southern rock. My friend, who is also a "hobbyist" musician, spent most of the time telling me how bad the band was and how he can't believe how the music scene has gotten. I couldn't stop laughing, and when he asked I pulled out a vid on my phone of his "band" doing the same song, and it was as bad if not worse then the band we were listening to.

I told him I was laughing because he and his band are the reason the scene now sucks. If you could make a decent living doing it today, you would have better musicians competing for those gigs and making better money. Instead, I reminded him that he plays his local pub twice a month for $300 a night, three sets, so he set the pay and the standard for everyone else who wants to play at the pub.

You do get what you pay for. However, it does seem that musicians are the ones who get screwed the most, and the ones who screw each other the most.

I am getting back into the cover scene here with a band that does '80s dance pop and billboard hits. Black shirt skinny white tie, white shirt skinny black tie, red leather suit jackets, etc. We are rehearsing to start gigs up again in the late spring, already have a couple of events booked. We are getting a bit more to start, but that is because we have a rep for being able to draw and to sell booze. And, we aint that bad looking either, so we draw more then our fair share of single cougars, who draw more then their fair share of young, booze buying guys.

The same is true here - I started in 1981 and many bars are paying the same money to bands now as the did then. Of course the quality of bands is nowhere near as good, mostly under-rehearsed, untalented kids, or under-rehearsed weekend hobbyists. I have nothing against those who play just as a hobby, so long as they don't completely suck.

I'm one of the lucky few - I'm well known, and I get decent paying gigs. Still, the whole thing hurts everyone - clubs are paying peanuts, so they get crap bands which of course turns patrons away from seeing live music. It's lose, lose, no matter what level you play at, or how often. Even if you play one gig a month as a hobby, there's no excuse for not being well-rehearsed and professional. If every band did that, more people would go and see live music, and we're all better off.

[SquierJazz72]

Of course the quality of bands is nowhere near as good, mostly under-rehearsed, untalented kids, or under-rehearsed weekend hobbyists. I have nothing against those who play just as a hobby, so long as they don't completely suck.

Probably a reason for that. Years ago, the "entry fee" to being in a band was a bit higher. We didn't have the luxury of cheap, but decent instruments. If you wanted to be serious, even as beginners, you had to buy what everyone else had. After spending that on equipment, you were motivated to be good.

Now, while the cheaper, but reasonable quality instruments make it possible for anyone to start learning for less up front , which is usually good, it also means any group of people can buy lower level instruments, practice up a bit, and call themselves a band. Whether or not they will all be any good, is something else.

Just speculating, but that could partly explain a large number of low quality bands. In the past, it wasn't, perhaps, quite as easy to afford to be a band.

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

The same is true here - I started in 1981 and many bars are paying the same money to bands now as the did then. Of course the quality of bands is nowhere near as good, mostly under-rehearsed, untalented kids, or under-rehearsed weekend hobbyists. I have nothing against those who play just as a hobby, so long as they don't completely suck.

I'm one of the lucky few - I'm well known, and I get decent paying gigs. Still, the whole thing hurts everyone - clubs are paying peanuts, so they get crap bands which of course turns patrons away from seeing live music. It's lose, lose, no matter what level you play at, or how often. Even if you play one gig a month as a hobby, there's no excuse for not being well-rehearsed and professional. If every band did that, more people would go and see live music, and we're all better off.

+1000

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by SquierJazz72

Probably a reason for that. Years ago, the "entry fee" to being in a band was a bit higher. We didn't have the luxury of cheap, but decent instruments. If you wanted to be serious, even as beginners, you had to buy what everyone else had. After spending that on equipment, you were motivated to be good.

Now, while the cheaper, but reasonable quality instruments make it possible for anyone to start learning for less up front , which is usually good, it also means any group of people can buy lower level instruments, practice up a bit, and call themselves a band. Whether or not they will all be any good, is something else.

Just speculating, but that could partly explain a large number of low quality bands. In the past, it wasn't, perhaps, quite as easy to afford to be a band.

I never really thought about it, but when I think back to what my equipment was worth then, it was very expensive for the time. Cheap instruments and amps in those days were garbage, but as you say, that's not the case these days. It's an interesting point.

[GibsnFendrstrat]

Just throwing this out there, some of you may find it amusing: My band is playing one of the most popular bars in the area this Friday. The place is always packed, no matter if the band has a following or not, or if the band is great or if it sucks. When other bars are empty, this place is slammed. When the economy sucks, you can barely find a place to park. Why? Because they have somehow gotten around the "no smoking" law that all the other bars have to follow. Don't ask me how, I have no idea. I do know this , though: there is one thing that trumps everything else when it comes to putting butts on bars tools, and that's nicotine.

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I don't know what bars you play, but the average bar band in the Jersey Shore area is getting about $450 for a 4 piece plus one sound/roadie. So $90 a guy before taxes. Yep, its at least 6 hours in and out, so at best, before taxes, $15 an hour. Which for someone working for a business isn't bad. However, as a musician, you are a 1099 type guy, I know I am. So, first, the state gets 7% of that 90 (I don't know any club owner who pays $450 and the sales tax) so you are down to $83. Then there is your federal tax, lets say 15%, so now you are at $70. If you paid nothing else, that is now $11 per hour. Now that, I'm sure, doesn't sound as good as your college guys, as cooks do make around $10 an hour.

Either way, $450 a night is less then I was making in 1981 per gig at some of the worst bars. Times have changed, but even minimum wage has gone up since then. Just not band prices. And there are a lot more "hobbyists" today then there were then that now drive prices even lower.

I was laughing hysterically yesterday. Went to a bar to meet a friend. The band was a bunch of local guys I know who only do it for fun, and play mostly only Eagles and slow southern rock. My friend, who is also a "hobbyist" musician, spent most of the time telling me how bad the band was and how he can't believe how the music scene has gotten. I couldn't stop laughing, and when he asked I pulled out a vid on my phone of his "band" doing the same song, and it was as bad if not worse then the band we were listening to.

I told him I was laughing because he and his band are the reason the scene now sucks. If you could make a decent living doing it today, you would have better musicians competing for those gigs and making better money. Instead, I reminded him that he plays his local pub twice a month for $300 a night, three sets, so he set the pay and the standard for everyone else who wants to play at the pub.

You do get what you pay for. However, it does seem that musicians are the ones who get screwed the most, and the ones who screw each other the most.

I am getting back into the cover scene here with a band that does '80s dance pop and billboard hits. Black shirt skinny white tie, white shirt skinny black tie, red leather suit jackets, etc. We are rehearsing to start gigs up again in the late spring, already have a couple of events booked. We are getting a bit more to start, but that is because we have a rep for being able to draw and to sell booze. And, we aint that bad looking either, so we draw more then our fair share of single cougars, who draw more then their fair share of young, booze buying guys.

This is all valid. I just want to add, though, that it seems to me there's a missing link in the process when it comes to the live music scene, and that's auditions. Most bar owners don't seem to ask, "Can you provide entertainment that will enhance my business?" They ask, "How many people can you draw?" They hire bands based on how many friends and fans the band allegedly has rather than on whether the band is going to help give their bar a brand name as a place for great entertainment.

Theater companies don't ask actors how many fans they can draw, they audition to see if they can pull off the part to make it a great play. A great play will get good reviews and bring more audiences. It seems like many bar owners don't check out the bands to see if they're any good before hiring, don't bother with a promo kit for evidence that they're any good, they just hire whoever's cheap and whoever promises they can draw.

[Factor88]

I probably should not get pulled back into this Zombie thread that has been beat to death already, but.....

At least in America, land of capitalists and business innovation, if a person could open a bar/nightclub/live music venue, and make a tidy profit by only hiring excellent pro bands at very attractive wages, and promoting the heck out of the gigs..... THEY WOULD BE DOING IT. It is precisely because in general they can make more money doing it the opposite way, that they do it. Sure there are the few clubs that do well doing thngs the "right" way, but if you listen to the b****ching that goes on in this forum they must be exceptions rather than the rule. And again, if it was a general rule that a business could be successful using the "hire great bands and pay them well" model, then more would do it and they would not be the exception, right?

Hobbyists and cheap club owners are merely red herrings for the real reason things are not like the good old days of 30 years ago: people are not going out and boozing it up like they used to. And IMO, it is doubtful they ever will again.

[DwaynieAD]

I don't buy the "bars run on very small margines" bs

a 5th of jack is $15 around here (which I know a bar isn't paying retail for it). they charge $6 for a shot of it . you get 17 shots in a 5th. $102 dollars in the register for that bottle less cost. $87 dollars in profit. 500% markup.

then he says that he doesn't wanna sell bottom shelf. around here a handle of bankers club whiskey is 11 dollars at the liquor store. 33 shots in a bottle and they charge 4 dollars a shot. 132 dollars in the register for that bottle or 121 dollars profit. 1000% markup on that cheap liquor.

they're paying bartenders waiter wages (2.83 an hour) so i guess you should add that in. 30 seconds to pour the shot 1/120 of 2.83 a whopping 2 cents to pour that shot.

come on, they're as bad as doctors complaining they can't make ends meat as they pull up in there BMW 745

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

I don't buy the "bars run on very small margines" bs

a 5th of jack is $15 around here (which I know a bar isn't paying retail for it). they charge $6 for a shot of it . you get 17 shots in a 5th. $102 dollars in the register for that bottle less cost. $87 dollars in profit. 500% markup.

then he says that he doesn't wanna sell bottom shelf. around here a handle of bankers club whiskey is 11 dollars at the liquor store. 33 shots in a bottle and they charge 4 dollars a shot. 132 dollars in the register for that bottle or 121 dollars profit. 1000% markup on that cheap liquor.

they're paying bartenders waiter wages (2.83 an hour) so i guess you should add that in. 30 seconds to pour the shot 1/120 of 2.83 a whopping 2 cents to pour that shot.

come on, they're as bad as doctors complaining they can't make ends meat as they pull up in there BMW 745

And people wonder why I chill at home chugging fortys.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Theater companies don't ask actors how many fans they can draw, they audition to see if they can pull off the part to make it a great play. A great play will get good reviews and bring more audiences. It seems like many bar owners don't check out the bands to see if they're any good before hiring, don't bother with a promo kit for evidence that they're any good, they just hire whoever's cheap and whoever promises they can draw.

Totally different business model. First of all, in most cases bar owners aren't qualified to audition and evaluate bands. Secondly, in most cases they really don't care about the quality of the band. They only care about selling booze.

See factor88's post above for a full explanation.

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I don't know what bars you play, but the average bar band in the Jersey Shore area is getting about $450 for a 4 piece plus one sound/roadie. So $90 a guy before taxes. Yep, its at least 6 hours in and out, so at best, before taxes, $15 an hour. Which for someone working for a business isn't bad. However, as a musician, you are a 1099 type guy, I know I am. So, first, the state gets 7% of that 90 (I don't know any club owner who pays $450 and the sales tax) so you are down to $83. Then there is your federal tax, lets say 15%, so now you are at $70. If you paid nothing else, that is now $11 per hour. Now that, I'm sure, doesn't sound as good as your college guys, as cooks do make around $10 an hour.

Someone working as a W2 employee would pay the same payroll taxes, less the employer portion of SS and medicare, as well as the employer portion of state and federal unemployment. In NJ, for $90 gross pay, the employer portion of FICA, FUTA and NJ UE (depending on your experience rating) would be approx $9.59, so you would be paying about $10 more in taxes (on your $90) as a subcontractor than if you were working an office job. Though, I'm sure you could come up with enough deductions/expenses to cover that.

There would be no 7% sales/use tax on 1099 subcontracted services/labor.

Now, health insurance is a whole other thing.

[bigsnaketex]

It really is all about bringing in people to the bar. My band, which is not stellar, brings in 80 - 120 for each performance - not because we're great - but because I'm old and have an awful lot of friends that just come out to drink and have a good time.

Times have changed - and not for the better. But it is what it is and if you want to play live, which I most certainly do, you have to jump in with both feet!!