Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[hdracer]

Originally Posted by joelb79

If your playing 80's hair metal or 90's grunge exclusively there are a lot of places you won't get called back to nor even land the gig. 80's dance music? Bring it, the girls love that stuff. (love shack baby!)

Woman LOVE hair metal. Go to a Hairball show sometime. The place is packed with cougars.
I was pointing out that looks matter. If you are going to be a rocker look the part.

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by mazdah

If that was true, there would be no:

Pink Floyd, The Doors, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Zappa, Rolling Stones, Creedence, Cream, Clapton, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Nazareth, Queen, Miles Davis, Muddy Watters, Weather Report, Jaco Pastorius, King Crimson, The Who, Primus, Riverside, Tool, Rush, Kansas, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Allman Brothers, Iron Maiden, The Cult, The Cure, Govt Mule, Focus, Jethro Tull, Kyuss, Sleep, Electric Wizard, Queens of the stone age, Corrosion of Conformity, Orange Goblin, Spiritual Beggars, Red Fang, Down, Clutch, Alabama Thunderpussy, Pantera, Korn, Cannibal Corpse, Godsmack, Disturbed, Marylin Manson....

and many, many, MANY others.

US had the same problem back in the 60's. Thanks to Motown, Stax and Chess you had great music to dance, but you needed "British invasion" to move stagnant music scene.
The big labels were just as club owners now - noone wanted to "risk" with the "strange looking" or "strage playing" band.

I know not everyone is Jaco Pastorius/Steve Harris/Les Claypool/Roger Waters (and not everyone should be), but I am sure, they would not succeed if they had to play only rooths and fifths to get people to dance, and dress and behave nicely.

The bar owner in the letter talk about cover band ... not original band ... Most original band rent the place to share their music and hope to sell a lot of tickets to cover the expense and do some profit. While a Cover band usually are paid to be a more interesting jukebox, it is a service.

So Cover Band and Original are two different business.

[klokker]

Originally Posted by pedro

Same here on a given night. But if you don't bring in a crowd or the place doesn't make money the fact of the matter is you won't get asked back. It's simple economics which I expect applies everywhere.

We've played for some owners who assume that good bands will eventually bring in the crowds. They won't bust you for an off night once in a while. They're trying to build a reputation for "good" music (music that gets people on the dance floor or keeps them in the bar). The band is more like an investment with the hope of a future return. It doesn't always work of course.

Certainly what you say is true in some cases, but not all.

[joelb79]

Originally Posted by pedro

'Love Shack' is one of my favorites and always fills the dance floor.

Exactly! Fun to play; girls love it.

Originally Posted by hdracer

Woman LOVE hair metal. Go to a Hairball show sometime. The place is packed with cougars.
I was pointing out that looks matter. If you are going to be a rocker look the part.

I buy that. Looking the part might work for some of these places as well; but that's not every bar's typical show. Some hair made top 40 but not all of it. Top 40 tends to go over well everywhere (at least around these parts).

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by klokker

We've played for some owners who assume that good bands will eventually bring in the crowds. They won't bust you for an off night once in a while. They're trying to build a reputation for "good" music (music that gets people on the dance floor or keeps them in the bar). The band is more like an investment with the hope of a future return. It doesn't always work of course.

Certainly what you say is true in some cases, but not all.

I liked the article, but the above is a great point that seldom comes out in the debate.

There seems to usually be two main points discussed, one being that musicians need to be paid for bringing in profits for the owner, and the other being that bands need to bring in profits to deserve getting paid. While both of these are true, sometimes a club has a business plan that calls for booking live music regardless of any certain band's profit generating ability on a particular night. Of course, any band on the rotation needs to make a profit over the course of time, but as klokker said, it doesn't mean you only get paid when the bar clears more than you brought in as some seem to think.

I've seen this many times, getting paid our full guarantee even when we knew the night was slow. Only once with my current band did we ever get shorted because of a slow night, and we never played that place again. Most places understand that they'll have great nights and slow nights and don't take it out on the bands.

[lowstrung5]

This letter reflects the reality of alot of bar/club owners. It's important to know who you're working for and how the venue operates. Some owners are much too eager to blame or praise a band for a bad/good night when it has little to do with their efforts/performance. I wish it were as simple as it sounds from the club owners point of view. Of course we as a band want the venue to make money because then it can stay profitable and continue to be a place to play. If the relationship between a club owner and a band is'nt on the same page as far as expectations, it can be very uncomfortable.
If bands want to avoid some of problems with bars/clubs then i might suggest rethinking where they would like to play. My band rarely plays a bar/club anymore and sticks more with casinos/festivals/corporate/civic events which arent as tied in with the need to sell drinks. Of course, all musicians wanting to get paid for playing should look at their band from a business standpoint and it will help ensure more success. Above all, remember it's your choice who/where you play and you always have the ability to say "NO".

[rockamimjazz]

I've known a few guys over the years who could benefit from the part about not getting hammered. Whether it is during setup, during the gig, or after the gig, your job is to look and act professional.

[nortonrider]

A good friend of mine owns a bar,
She has music every Friday night - NEVER charges a cover.
Bands make in the $400. - $600. range (guaranteed)
Some nights are good for the Bar - others not so much.

For years, she had never really turned a profit from the live music,
Advertising, ASCAP/BMI fees, extra staff, paying the band, etc.

So why does she do it?
She likes live music
It gives the locals somewhere to go
It gives the bands some place to play
It keeps the till ringing and helps her bartenders (friends) make some decent money (tips).

Recently (in the past year) she had to raise her drink prices on band nights
(a quarter more per beer, 50 cents for a mixed drink) to offset rising costs.
Patrons understand and don't mind paying it at all,
everyone likes the idea of not having a cover charge.

If you take in to account having one bad night (Rain, Snow, whatever) that
keeps people away, it takes the small profits generated for the next three
band nights to make up for the loss she (the bar) takes.
Not every bar owner is out to screw over musicians, some actually go out of their way to help them.

Bands are booked for every Friday for the next 5 months, everyone likes playing there
and a few of the larger named local acts take less (a pay cut) to play at her bar.


Oh, all of the prima donna band stuff you guys keep talking about (too loud, bad music choice, not tipping, etc)
don't fly there. There is no problem at all booking bands that "get it",
she doesn't need (or want) anyone that thinks that "the rules" don't apply to them.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by klokker

We've played for some owners who assume that good bands will eventually bring in the crowds. They won't bust you for an off night once in a while. They're trying to build a reputation for "good" music (music that gets people on the dance floor or keeps them in the bar). The band is more like an investment with the hope of a future return. It doesn't always work of course.

Certainly what you say is true in some cases, but not all.

Whether the owner gives you a second or third opportunity I think the principle is the same. If you don't help the owner make money you will 'eventually' not be asked back.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by pedro

Whether the owner gives you a second or third opportunity I think the principle is the same. If you don't help the owner make money you will 'eventually' not be asked back.

Yeah, that's the general rule in my area.

I'm sure there are some good-natured, big-hearted club owners out there who really love the music and aren't as concerned about profits. But if they take that mentaility just a little too far, their good nature translates into not being able to pay the bills and the business shuts down. You can't deny the reality of simple economics. (There are big exceptions to this, namely venues that don't depend on entertainment to draw customers, like casinos).

I think the gist of the letter is, bands have an obligation to help the bar owner meet his financial needs, whether it's being good entertainers and holding the crowd, helping him sell alcohol (either overtly or subtly), whatever it takes. And that is a business mentality that the valued bands share with the owner and are willing to take positive steps to accomodate.

The bar owner in this particular letter had some specific suggestions based on his experience with a variety of bands, some of which helped him meet his goals, some of which did not. Those specifics may be different in your area, but wherever you are, the bar owners still have a criteria for bands that help them meet their goals and run a succesful club...if they intend to keep the doors opening every day and continue making live music part of the attraction.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

Especially these days, most younger musicians have no clue why bars bring in live bands. The kids always think everything they want is their "right", as opposed to what the business owner requires to keep the bar operating.

That seems a little harsh on kids, don't you think? Operating a legit business is a bit different than running a lemonade stand a couple days during the summer. I don't kids think it's their 'right' as much as they (as well as many other musicians) are simply ignorant to the fact that businesses operating on margins.

[SquierJazz72]

I think sometimes there's some erroneous expectations on both sides of the equation, which needlessly complicates the owner/band relationship.

I can only speak from past experience, but the onus was never on the band to directly sell anything, alcohol or otherwise. The band was there as entertainment, to draw a crowd by its mere presence.

But, the bands that did the best and worked the most, were those that did the other things he mentions.

They had a set list of well known favorite songs for people to dance to. They knew what kind of music to play for the venue, and they stuck to it, giving people what they wanted.

They also had a large enough repertoire outside their set list to do most requests.

And here is what I think made a big difference. The most successful of those bands were not always the most technically proficient. They were the ones who knew how to interact, work the crowd, if you will. Put on a show. Thus they kept most of the people there and spending for most of the four hours that was booked.

Nothing wrong with high technical proficiency, but the couple of bands that tried to rely only on that, and didn't have or value certain "crowd skills" never did nearly as well, as those who could draw and KEEP people.

[MarkMgibson]

I know a couple of good club managers who both love live music, and make a point of promoting it. One of them manages three different venues, and he promotes live music in all those venues. I asked him once if he makes a good profit from live music, and he said, "of course we do, do you have idea of the mark-up on alcohol". All these club owners crying poor are full of crap.

[JoeWPgh]

You have to remember who your customer is. It's the person who pays you. Some customers are great, some are abusive, and others are imbeciles. As in any other business, as you succeed, you hopefully develop a good clientele and are too busy for the abusive and the imbeciles

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

do you have idea of the mark-up on alcohol". All these club owners crying poor are full of crap.

How many well mixed drinks do you suppose you would have to sell to make enough profit to pay for a $500. band?

What about beers?
how many Drafts?
how many Bottles?

Now, after the band has been paid, what about all of the other operating costs for the night?
power, water, labor, taxes, consumables (napkins, toilet paper), etc..........
Those all have to be paid too.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

How many well mixed drinks do you suppose you would have to sell to make enough profit to pay for a $500. band?

What about beers?
how many Drafts?
how many Bottles?

Now, after the band has been paid, what about all of the other operating costs for the night?
power, water, labor, taxes, consumables (napkins, toilet paper), etc..........
Those all have to be paid too.

Can't answer the questions without more information like the cost of the alcohol and mixers?

How many of those drinks can the bar sell without the band there? Sounds like the bar you're referring should go at without the band.

[nicopiano]

Interesting!!!

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Freddels

Can't answer the questions without more information like the cost of the alcohol and mixers?

How many of those drinks can the bar sell without the band there? Sounds like the bar you're referring should go at without the band.

you can get a pretty close "guesstimate" by just knowing how much a well drink costs in your area.
AN EXAMPLE (just for the sake of discussion) - your mileage may vary:

Making A $5.00 Rum and Coke:

.A fifth of well rum costs the bar $22.
.There are 17 (1.5 oz.) shots in a fifth
.Each shot costs the bar $1.30.
.Coke, Co2, Ice... estimate $0.10
.Shrinkage (broken glasses, spilled product) estimate $0.03
. Consumables (stirrer, napkin, soap and sanitizer, labor) estimate $0.02

So.... it costs the bar $1.45 to make the drink and sells it for $5.00.
That means that the gross profit made on that drink is $3.55.

With simple math ($500. divided by $3.55) we can calculate that it would take selling 141 rum and cokes to just make enough to cover paying the band.

Now, depending on the size and efficiency of the bar, I would think that it would be safe to assume a neighborhood type bar would have to double that amount to keep the doors open.
So...... using these hypothetical (but probably not too far off) numbers, a bar would have to sell 282 Rum and Cokes just to break even on a band night.

If the band was the only draw and they brought in 100 paying/drinking customers, each one would have to buy 3 rum and cokes (or spend $15.) for the bar to keep from losing money.
Can your Band guarantee drawing 100 patrons and hold them all long enough to spend $15. each?
(That's a lot tougher number to hit than you think it is)




Disclaimer:
I used these values based on typical rural redneck "Bob's Country Bunker" type bars. If you are in NYC where they charge $12. a drink, adjust your numbers accordingly but I would assume a higher overhead for such a place and that the margins would be pretty close to the same when it all washes out.

[Freddels]

Then it sounds like the bar doesn't make enough profit. Can the bar get enough people in the bar to sell 141 rum cokes without the band since you state that it would need to double the sales to make enough for all the other expenses. Rent, taxes, heat, etc. are fixed costs that are there whether or not the bar is open for business or not. But I think the bar doesn't pay retail prices for alcohol.

The times have changed and people tend to drink less due to having to drive home. The bars need to figure out another revenue source besides just alcohol.

By your examples, it would seem that only inexperienced bar owners would even consider paying for live music since it's such a losing proposition for them.

I see bars that are pretty empty and others that are packed. Some only bring in touring bands and do pretty well. Others seem to have good local bands and you'll see a lot of the regulars in there on just about any night.

[busmandan]

Originally Posted by pedro

One of our favorite venues has a party room that they rent downstairs. Very nice room w/ a bar and they rent it at a ridiculously low price. Anyhoo, we threw ourselves a party downstairs and when management saw folks headed downstairs they followed and hired us.

That happened with one of my originals bands once. Some friends of ours wanted us to play for a birthday party and rented the party room of a local bar that only books cover bands. The owner came in while we were playing, then cornered us afterward wanting us to play the main room. We tactfully pointed out that the music we played was our own and that we didn't think it would work. "I don't care," he said. "I hear tons of bands that come in here and you're better than all of them. That's what I want and my customers will appreciate it."

Since we didn't have enough original material to play a full night, we learned some covers and mixed them in with our own songs. The club owner and his patrons loved it, and we played there several times before the building the club occupied was sold and they had to close.