Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[nortonrider]

Freddels,
It's all in the math, nothing mystical about it.

A bar (or any business) just has to calculate margins to evaluate a
return on their investment.

Of course, variables are always in play in the bar biz.

[TRichardsbass]

If you research my thread here on successful original bands you will find some posts by me that sound like he copied me.

The letter from the owner is 100% correct. If you want to play the A or B rooms, gain a following and make some dough then you better realize that most of the people in the bar ain't thereto see you.

Here in NJ there has been a herd of bands that are either playing blues or esoteric crap that only the band thinks is cool and dress like they were out all night and just woke up in the same clothes. Nothing even remotely danceable. And they wonder why they get paid squat and often don't get asked back.

A good band may not draw them in, but a bad band will chase them away. You can't get paid if the bar owner has no money.

I was asked to play a few songs with a band right before Xmas at a bar near my house. I agreed but only if I got to choose the songs. We did Brick House, Play that Funky music and Call Me Maybe. The dance floor was packed with young hotties AND cougars. When I got off they did a Billy Joel song, followed by 20th Century Fox and then Ventura Highway. The dance floor was empty and the bar thinned out.

The club owner asked if I was interested in playing his place. I told him I would love to but he couldnt afford me. He looked at me and said he pays bands well, $300 per night. I told him that was about what it would cost for just me. I then had a long discussion with him about how the business works for a band and how it works for a bar.

I will be playing there in March, and we have agreed on a sliding scale, based on the bar totals at the end of the night. We will see if he lives up to his end.

However, again, the "Open Letter" is 100% correct. If you can't draw, then no one will be there to buy drinks and food. If you don't draw and they let you play more then once thank them. Bottom line, if you don't draw then don't complain if no one will book you.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Freddels,
It's all in the math, nothing mystical about it.

A bar (or any business) just has to calculate margins to evaluate a
return on their investment.

Of course, variables are always in play in the bar biz.

Oh, I understand math and business. The bar owner had better have his &%$ together if he/she wants to stay in business. But, if the bar wants to pay only $300 for a band, they're going to get what they pay for.

I don't disagree that the bar needs to make money in order to pay for the band but the bar makes a business decision on how it wants to get people in. Whether it's a band, karaoke, a DJ, a bunch of televisions on the wall with sports, or ferns or whatever.

I also see local bars that have a cover charge for the band and the guy collecting it is skimming. You can easily count the number of people in the bar and then see what the band gets handed at the end of the night and it's not hard to figure out. Another local place charges a cover and has an in house sound guy. The sound guy gets the first $200 from the cover and the band gets the rest. The sound is terrible and he's not worth $50.

So, just like the band may need a good paying day gig, the bar owner might need one too.

[TRichardsbass]

If you play a place that collects a cover insist that you have someone who sits with the person taking the cover. That way you can at least argue at the end of he night over the number.

If you already know the sound guy gets $200, then you can negotiate your fee with that knowledge.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

you can get a pretty close "guesstimate" by just knowing how much a well drink costs in your area.
AN EXAMPLE (just for the sake of discussion) - your mileage may vary:

Making A $5.00 Rum and Coke:

.A fifth of well rum costs the bar $22.
.There are 17 (1.5 oz.) shots in a fifth
.Each shot costs the bar $1.30.
.Coke, Co2, Ice... estimate $0.10
.Shrinkage (broken glasses, spilled product) estimate $0.03
. Consumables (stirrer, napkin, soap and sanitizer, labor) estimate $0.02

So.... it costs the bar $1.45 to make the drink and sells it for $5.00.
That means that the gross profit made on that drink is $3.55.

With simple math ($500. divided by $3.55) we can calculate that it would take selling 141 rum and cokes to just make enough to cover paying the band.

Now, depending on the size and efficiency of the bar, I would think that it would be safe to assume a neighborhood type bar would have to double that amount to keep the doors open.
So...... using these hypothetical (but probably not too far off) numbers, a bar would have to sell 282 Rum and Cokes just to break even on a band night.

If the band was the only draw and they brought in 100 paying/drinking customers, each one would have to buy 3 rum and cokes (or spend $15.) for the bar to keep from losing money.
Can your Band guarantee drawing 100 patrons and hold them all long enough to spend $15. each?
(That's a lot tougher number to hit than you think it is)




Disclaimer:
I used these values based on typical rural redneck "Bob's Country Bunker" type bars. If you are in NYC where they charge $12. a drink, adjust your numbers accordingly but I would assume a higher overhead for such a place and that the margins would be pretty close to the same when it all washes out.

A fifth of well rum does not cost anywhere near $22.00

You can get a fifth of Bacardi for around $10.00; a well rum would be a lot less.

So I just cut your draw to under 50 people paying $15.00 a night.

And I've never met anyone who only spent $15.00 at a bar.

Plus, some clubs charge $5.00 a head cover.

These bars make a killing when you draw even a little.

Playing to an empty room? OK, now it sucks to be the club owner.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

If you play a place that collects a cover insist that you have someone who sits with the person taking the cover. That way you can at least argue at the end of he night over the number.

If you already know the sound guy gets $200, then you can negotiate your fee with that knowledge.

We won't be playing the place with the $200 sound guy again b/c he's not worth $200 and the sound was absolutely horrible.

Door guy . . . the better way to do it is with wrist bands. You give the guy a certain # of wrist bands, count what's turned back in and the money and it should add up.

[ACalbass]

For many people,making and playing music is all about to play in bars,and obviously,this is what you find.

You cannot confuse making music and art to the idea to fit the market.
A working musician should also make the music that will never be played in a bar,should explore the limits of his abilities,should find the expression of his imagination.
Now there is a need to work,but you will find more work and faster if you cultivate yourself,become a better musician.
Is not about to learn to play mustang sally in order to work.
Is about YOU being good enough to produce music that will make people want to hear you,again and again.
When this happens,bar owners ideas and opinions do not matter anymore.

[Mike Sorr]

While there is no question that what this bar owner is saying is true from his business perspective, it is also the main reason for the state of the music industry over the past 20 years or so. Why is there precious little good rock music these days? Why are most cover bands playing 25 to 50 year old rock standards? Were musicians just more creative back then, or were there more people willing to give them a chance to hone their craft? Is it only the economy? It seems to me that the bar scene here in NJ during the Carter administration was a hell of a lot better than it is today. Excuse me for griping. Sometimes the truth hurts. The bar owner speaks of "product", well that is exactly what music is today-not art, not self expression, but product. Take a look at who is on tour this year...what is the average age of the bands that still play big clubs and arenas...mid-50s or older? Why do you think that is?

As a side note, I wonder of this bar owner offers a taxi service or helps make arrangements for the customers he's been pushing his top shelf product on all night.

[SquierJazz72]

As a side note, I wonder of this bar owner offers a taxi service or helps make arrangements for the customers he's been pushing his top shelf product on all night.

I had that thought too. Still not comfortable with the band as alcohol pushers.

Again, in my experience, if a decent band does the rest properly, people coming, people staying, and people spending takes care of itself.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by Mike Sorr

While there is no question that what this bar owner is saying is true from his business perspective, it is also the main reason for the state of the music industry over the past 20 years or so. Why is there precious little good rock music these days? Why are most cover bands playing 25 to 50 year old rock standards? Were musicians just more creative back then, or were there more people willing to give them a chance to hone their craft? Is it only the economy? It seems to me that the bar scene here in NJ during the Carter administration was a hell of a lot better than it is today. Excuse me for griping. Sometimes the truth hurts. The bar owner speaks of "product", well that is exactly what music is today-not art, not self expression, but product. Take a look at who is on tour this year...what is the average age of the bands that still play big clubs and arenas...mid-50s or older? Why do you think that is?

As a side note, I wonder of this bar owner offers a taxi service or helps make arrangements for the customers he's been pushing his top shelf product on all night.

Back in the late 70's and 80's I used to go to a few different clubs but none of them had cover bands. They were all original touring bands that were there every week and the place was packed. Bands like The Ramones, Modern English, Bow Wow Wow, Joe Perry Project, etc. were playing these small clubs. The clubs were packed.

[TRichardsbass]

Mike, what changed was the drinking age, which dramatically changed both the bar and band scene. And Freddels, same for things in and around Landsdowne.

In NJ the drinking age went to 21 in'82. So in the late '70s and early '80s your average 16 year old was sneaking in and the drinking population was in the 18-22 range. Bars had more patrons, and we therefor had some of the greatest cover bands that ever existed. But on any night you has your choice of at least 5 superior bands and there were 5 times the number of bars to go to and, getting pulled over if slightly under the influence was not a zero tolerance policy.

[Mike Sorr]

The club scene in Jersey was great in the late 80s too. Well, maybe not great, but far far better than it is today. I played several nights per week back then...and some of the clubs were big! Mother's, Studio One, Club Bene, The Fountain Casino, L'Amour, The Park Villa to name just a few. Why are there no places like these left anymore? Are people just not going out to rock clubs anymore? Is it a question of ridiculously high insurance premiums? Less younger people interested in being musicians? Greed? The deplorable state of the music that is being force fed on kids these days? These places were packed for years after the driving age was rasied.

Now with the many of the shore clubs severely damanged or gone completely as a result of the hurricane the competition, even among the long established bands, will be crazy. A new band doesn't have a shot.

A side question: Who is the youngest guitar or bass player kids want to emulate these days? Are there any?

[Freddels]

In MA and RI, the drinking age changed from 18 to 21 around '79. I remember still be able to drink b/c of being grandfathered in (basically if you were legal before the change, then the change didn't count for you).

Even a few years ago, there were some under 21 clubs that were catering to original type metal bands and they were packing the place on many nights. I knew one of the owners who told me business was good for that market. They must have been selling a lot of soda. The owner/manager had some other legal issues and the place ended up closing due to them not being "available" for a while.

But the point I was making was that there were lots of original bands that were filling the clubs. The cover bands were playing the holiday inns and restaurant bars (at least that's where the cover band that I was in for a while played) and we usually played 3 nights in a row. Set up and play Thursday night and tear down after the Saturday night set and we got paid pretty well (more than I get paid now).

[hdracer]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Mike, what changed was the drinking age, which dramatically changed both the bar and band scene. And Freddels, same for things in and around Landsdowne.

In NJ the drinking age went to 21 in'82. So in the late '70s and early '80s your average 16 year old was sneaking in and the drinking population was in the 18-22 range. Bars had more patrons, and we therefor had some of the greatest cover bands that ever existed. But on any night you has your choice of at least 5 superior bands and there were 5 times the number of bars to go to and, getting pulled over if slightly under the influence was not a zero tolerance policy.

There is one thing you have left out.
Cocaine
In the late 70's and all through the 80's & 90's coke was huge, everyone would get a 8 ball on Friday after work and party all weekend. Bars had to throw people out at 2:00 am and after hour clubs were packed all night.

Coke was a nasty drug but it did fuel a lot of businesses.

[TRichardsbass]

Freddels, Beantown was special. I saw the Cars many times in your area before they hit it big.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

you can get a pretty close "guesstimate" by just knowing how much a well drink costs in your area.
AN EXAMPLE (just for the sake of discussion) - your mileage may vary:

Making A $5.00 Rum and Coke:

.A fifth of well rum costs the bar $22.
.There are 17 (1.5 oz.) shots in a fifth
.Each shot costs the bar $1.30.
.Coke, Co2, Ice... estimate $0.10
.Shrinkage (broken glasses, spilled product) estimate $0.03
. Consumables (stirrer, napkin, soap and sanitizer, labor) estimate $0.02

So.... it costs the bar $1.45 to make the drink and sells it for $5.00.
That means that the gross profit made on that drink is $3.55.

With simple math ($500. divided by $3.55) we can calculate that it would take selling 141 rum and cokes to just make enough to cover paying the band.

Now, depending on the size and efficiency of the bar, I would think that it would be safe to assume a neighborhood type bar would have to double that amount to keep the doors open.
So...... using these hypothetical (but probably not too far off) numbers, a bar would have to sell 282 Rum and Cokes just to break even on a band night.

If the band was the only draw and they brought in 100 paying/drinking customers, each one would have to buy 3 rum and cokes (or spend $15.) for the bar to keep from losing money.
Can your Band guarantee drawing 100 patrons and hold them all long enough to spend $15. each?
(That's a lot tougher number to hit than you think it is)




Disclaimer:
I used these values based on typical rural redneck "Bob's Country Bunker" type bars. If you are in NYC where they charge $12. a drink, adjust your numbers accordingly but I would assume a higher overhead for such a place and that the margins would be pretty close to the same when it all washes out.

Nice work! I agree that your numbers are a bit off, though. I actually did something similar for my own band recently when trying to figure out how much my band should be making vs what we actually are. Here are some really simple numbers I came up with:

Cover charge - $5
Pint of most beers - $4
Well whiskey/rum and cokes - $5

My band can typically bring out 80 people to this place, so right away the bar is making $400 off of us just on the cover charge alone. Our fan base is mostly college-aged kids with some money to play with, and they will typically buy 2-4 drinks on any given night. That means if our fans just drink beer the bar will likely make an additional $960 dollars, or $1,200 if they just drink liquor.

Obviously there are costs associated with running a business and they should always be considered, but after adding up the revenues it seems like the bar is making at least a grand off of us on a bad night and is making close to $1,600 or more off of us on a good night (and we almost always have good nights). Needless to say, we'll be asking for a pay raise very soon.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Freddels, Beantown was special. I saw the Cars many times in your area before they hit it big.

Yes, it was. One of my classmates, who lived across the street from me, was in Til Tuesday. Aimee Mann worked at Newbury Comics on Newbury Street. Lots of good stuff back then.

[Bunk McNulty]

I have only one argument with club owners, and it has to do with the best strategy for getting a crowd of regulars. Once upon a time, house bands were common. An owner would book a band for three or six nights a week. It worked: bands built a following, and the bars made money off the crowd. Somehow, that seems to have gone out the window. There's a place I play once a month; every time we go in there we draw well, and we know how to play that cash-register-ringing music. I've approached the owner about making us his regular Saturday night band (He already refers to us as "his Saturday night band"), about how we could build a bigger following and make him more dough, but he looks at me like I have two heads. I dunno, maybe he's right, but I sure wish I could find a place that would at least let us test the concept for a while. Hell, we'd lower our rate to do it!

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by nortonrider

you can get a pretty close "guesstimate" by just knowing how much a well drink costs in your area.
AN EXAMPLE (just for the sake of discussion) - your mileage may vary:

Making A $5.00 Rum and Coke:

.A fifth of well rum costs the bar $22.
.There are 17 (1.5 oz.) shots in a fifth
.Each shot costs the bar $1.30.
.Coke, Co2, Ice... estimate $0.10
.Shrinkage (broken glasses, spilled product) estimate $0.03
. Consumables (stirrer, napkin, soap and sanitizer, labor) estimate $0.02

So.... it costs the bar $1.45 to make the drink and sells it for $5.00.
That means that the gross profit made on that drink is $3.55.

With simple math ($500. divided by $3.55) we can calculate that it would take selling 141 rum and cokes to just make enough to cover paying the band.

Now, depending on the size and efficiency of the bar, I would think that it would be safe to assume a neighborhood type bar would have to double that amount to keep the doors open.
So...... using these hypothetical (but probably not too far off) numbers, a bar would have to sell 282 Rum and Cokes just to break even on a band night.

If the band was the only draw and they brought in 100 paying/drinking customers, each one would have to buy 3 rum and cokes (or spend $15.) for the bar to keep from losing money.
Can your Band guarantee drawing 100 patrons and hold them all long enough to spend $15. each?
(That's a lot tougher number to hit than you think it is)




Disclaimer:
I used these values based on typical rural redneck "Bob's Country Bunker" type bars. If you are in NYC where they charge $12. a drink, adjust your numbers accordingly but I would assume a higher overhead for such a place and that the margins would be pretty close to the same when it all washes out.

I think those numbers are a long way out (by about half would by my estimate), but even so, you're still talking about a mark-up of 350%. By any business standards, that's a huge profit margin, so why don't they spend some of that profit on promotion? That's always been by biggest complaint about live venues. They whine about not getting enough people in, but do little, if anything to promote live music. They just expect people to magically appear without any effort on their part.

[Downunderwonder]

Nothing succeeds like success. Where the magic is, only a few bar owners know and I wish I did. They open the doors and the people appear.

The most popular nightspot in town spends a lot on radio promos for their theme parties and their restaurant business, but not a squeak about band nights. Whatever they are doing they are packed out. Only top notch crowd pleasing cover bands play there.