Open letter from bar owner to musicians

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I think those numbers are a long way out (by about half would by my estimate), but even so, you're still talking about a mark-up of 350%. By any business standards, that's a huge profit margin, so why don't they spend some of that profit on promotion? That's always been by biggest complaint about live venues. They whine about not getting enough people in, but do little, if anything to promote live music. They just expect people to magically appear without any effort on their part.

Bars live to promote bar sales, not live music. That's the bands job, once they score a gig at an establishment.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Bars live to promote bar sales, not live music. That's the bands job, once they score a gig at an establishment.

I definitely don't agree with that. If the bar's business model is to be a premier live music venue then it'd only make sense that they promote the bands they have playing there. That's not to say it's their sole responsibility and that the bands don't have to do anything, but to put it completely on the band is asking for trouble.

[ibateur]

Bar managers can do a lot more (it appears) in terms of marketing. If they saw that drink X was popular, they could stock more of those, or they could get a volume deal on the supply side. They could reduce prices slightly to increase demand or increase prices slightly if customers are price insensitive. If rock band X's favourite drink was drink X, they could do a special when the band plays, etc etc etc. They should be watching consumption on different nights to see what sells most when.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Bars live to promote bar sales, not live music. That's the bands job, once they score a gig at an establishment.

Utter nonsense. Bars promote everything else, from karaoke nights, to buffets, to poker tournaments, etc. Why the hell is live music any different? Do you think the guy who hosts the quiz night is expected to promote it as well? Please.

[Downunderwonder]

Only touring original bands do any self promo here. Cover bands show up and play for whoever happens to be there.

There are a few gig guides, weekly and monthly, which catch most gigs between them. They probably get a little extra business from that but mostly it's the general cache of the venue that provides the draw.

There is no advertising of cover bands. If you bolster the inbuilt crowd you get another gig.

[bassboysam]

This is why we dont play at bars. we play live music venues that happen to serve alcohol. we dont worry about playing popular music, yet we still get good turnouts.

[rimbaud]

Ok so if you want me to help you to sell your beers, pay me like your employee... not more ok... but pay me ... ok ???

Fact is: each side says generalities about the other, and of course that's not the good way to make our business go round.

But please... read between the lines ok ? there are.... some ! bar owners that really use and abuse, are we really going to take care of them ? are they taking care of us when we have to play crap music and working in factories and not be able to live as real artists and creators ??

So I'd say to this guy: you do not want us to "say generalities" about you ? right, do so... too !

My 2 cents.....

[Akami]

Originally Posted by Tom_RCJ

There's 3 parties involved in bar gigs. Musicians, owners, audiences. All 3 are equally important. All 3 have their own agenda. Musicians want to play music. Owners want to make money. Audiences want to have a good time. It's that simple. If everything done is intended to accommodate the ambitions of all 3 parties, then the system will thrive and everyone will be happy.

There are variations of course. Musicians would like to make a buck as well. I'm sure some venue owners like music. Just make sure you take everyone's interests into account when you make a decision or take an action. Self-interest benefits very few. Cooperation is the way to a healthy and stable environment.

Some great posts in this thread, but this one is my favorite and one of the best at seeing the elephant from all sides.

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Nice work! I agree that your numbers are a bit off, though. I actually did something similar for my own band recently when trying to figure out how much my band should be making vs what we actually are. Here are some really simple numbers I came up with:

Cover charge - $5
Pint of most beers - $4
Well whiskey/rum and cokes - $5

My band can typically bring out 80 people to this place, so right away the bar is making $400 off of us just on the cover charge alone. Our fan base is mostly college-aged kids with some money to play with, and they will typically buy 2-4 drinks on any given night. That means if our fans just drink beer the bar will likely make an additional $960 dollars, or $1,200 if they just drink liquor.

Obviously there are costs associated with running a business and they should always be considered, but after adding up the revenues it seems like the bar is making at least a grand off of us on a bad night and is making close to $1,600 or more off of us on a good night (and we almost always have good nights). Needless to say, we'll be asking for a pay raise very soon.

[TRichardsbass]

Its always going to be symbiotic to work for everyone. I think though, that the original letter writer's point was that bands, at least many he has run into, seem to believe or portray that it is the bar owner's job or obligation to create a scene for the band and for the bar owner to be subservient to the music. Which is an attitude that is highly prevelant.

The bar owner provides you:

1. A place to play, including electricity and sometimes sound.
2. Some built in audience. I don't know any bar that doesn't have a few locals and regulars.
3. A venue that you can advertise as playing, and that you can use to build a following. Otherwise you are still in your basement or garage.
4. Some compensation for doing something you love to do.
5. Some advertising.

What you provide:

1. Entertainment for his bar/regulars.
2. Some audience/patronage that comes from your following.
3. Some advertising of the venue.

Just numerically here you bring less to the table to start. You also don't provide necessarily a product the patrons wish to consume (thrash metal band, for example, at a tiki bar)

Your band is your BUSINESS, and his bar is his BUSINESS. You both get out of it what you put into it.

If you actually draw, and draw well, and can prove it, bar owners will knock on your door and have you back a ton. And you can command a decent pay and get it. If you provide his only draw, you are even more in the driver's seat.

If you are counting on the bar to provide you an audience and draw, you have zero power and you can't complain, as they are providing you the place and the possibility of gaining an audience.

I have had some pretty tough run ins with bar and club owners over the years, including one that landed me in jail for a night (a story for another time.) But most of them are not out to screw you. They are trying to make a buck. When you consider that the purchase price of the average liquor license in NJ starts around $500K (you can find a few in crappy towns cheaper, better towns some over $1M) the bar owner already has a half years profit tied up before he can even serve one customer. Then he has to buy supplies, pay for gas, electric, property taxes, business licenses and fees, etc., and he has quite an investment.

So if a club owner seems a little disinterested in your bands financial plight, understand, he has already spent 100-1000 times what you invested in your little local cover band. So if he wants you to help him make $$$$, its clearly understandable.

Now, no club owner should treat you like crap, and bands MUST stand together and not underbid each other and also not play at bars that have screwed other bands. That way you can efffect the bar's pocket book if you do have a following he needs. If a bar can't find decent entertainment or ways to draw people in, it will become a money loser quickly and close, like so many, many do.

So before so many of you get on your high horses here, also remember that the money you let the bar owner pay you was agreed upon. And you make squat, because you are all competing against each other and under pricing yourselves. Also, like the bar owner said, you better be bringing your A game at all times. Not just musically, but professionally, Dress like a band, put up lights and banners like a band. Act like a band someone would want to see. Make sure you carry yourself in a manner that says professional. Otherwise, you will always be under bid by the local hobbyist and guys who just want to play for fun and are happy to walk out of a bar with $50 in their pocket. And there are TONS of them.

There is a band here called LifeSpeed that has been packing Bar A for about a decade now on Tuesday nights, even in the winter. They not only are an amazingly good cover band, they have worked with the bar to come up with integrated promotions. They get paid about three times what the average band does here for a weekend gig, and they get it for a Tuesday. They are always dressed in "costume". they always put on a show, and they are always good with the fans at Bar A, so it reflects well not only on them but also on the bar. Basically they are worth every penny.

Can you or I say that everytime we play a gig, that everytime we walk into a bar or club, we are truly worth every penny? Have we really done EVERYTHING we can and should? If you wore shorts and a T shirt even once, I'd say no.....

[Slowgypsy]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Its always going to be symbiotic to work for everyone. I think though, that the original letter writer's point was that bands, at least many he has run into, seem to believe or portray that it is the bar owner's job or obligation to create a scene for the band and for the bar owner to be subservient to the music. Which is an attitude that is highly prevelant.

The bar owner provides you:

1. A place to play, including electricity and sometimes sound.
2. Some built in audience. I don't know any bar that doesn't have a few locals and regulars.
3. A venue that you can advertise as playing, and that you can use to build a following. Otherwise you are still in your basement or garage.
4. Some compensation for doing something you love to do.
5. Some advertising.

What you provide:

1. Entertainment for his bar/regulars.
2. Some audience/patronage that comes from your following.
3. Some advertising of the venue.

Just numerically here you bring less to the table to start. You also don't provide necessarily a product the patrons wish to consume (thrash metal band, for example, at a tiki bar)

Your band is your BUSINESS, and his bar is his BUSINESS. You both get out of it what you put into it.

If you actually draw, and draw well, and can prove it, bar owners will knock on your door and have you back a ton. And you can command a decent pay and get it. If you provide his only draw, you are even more in the driver's seat.

If you are counting on the bar to provide you an audience and draw, you have zero power and you can't complain, as they are providing you the place and the possibility of gaining an audience.

I have had some pretty tough run ins with bar and club owners over the years, including one that landed me in jail for a night (a story for another time.) But most of them are not out to screw you. They are trying to make a buck. When you consider that the purchase price of the average liquor license in NJ starts around $500K (you can find a few in crappy towns cheaper, better towns some over $1M) the bar owner already has a half years profit tied up before he can even serve one customer. Then he has to buy supplies, pay for gas, electric, property taxes, business licenses and fees, etc., and he has quite an investment.

So if a club owner seems a little disinterested in your bands financial plight, understand, he has already spent 100-1000 times what you invested in your little local cover band. So if he wants you to help him make $$$$, its clearly understandable.

Now, no club owner should treat you like crap, and bands MUST stand together and not underbid each other and also not play at bars that have screwed other bands. That way you can efffect the bar's pocket book if you do have a following he needs. If a bar can't find decent entertainment or ways to draw people in, it will become a money loser quickly and close, like so many, many do.

So before so many of you get on your high horses here, also remember that the money you let the bar owner pay you was agreed upon. And you make squat, because you are all competing against each other and under pricing yourselves. Also, like the bar owner said, you better be bringing your A game at all times. Not just musically, but professionally, Dress like a band, put up lights and banners like a band. Act like a band someone would want to see. Make sure you carry yourself in a manner that says professional. Otherwise, you will always be under bid by the local hobbyist and guys who just want to play for fun and are happy to walk out of a bar with $50 in their pocket. And there are TONS of them.

There is a band here called LifeSpeed that has been packing Bar A for about a decade now on Tuesday nights, even in the winter. They not only are an amazingly good cover band, they have worked with the bar to come up with integrated promotions. They get paid about three times what the average band does here for a weekend gig, and they get it for a Tuesday. They are always dressed in "costume". they always put on a show, and they are always good with the fans at Bar A, so it reflects well not only on them but also on the bar. Basically they are worth every penny.

Can you or I say that everytime we play a gig, that everytime we walk into a bar or club, we are truly worth every penny? Have we really done EVERYTHING we can and should? If you wore shorts and a T shirt even once, I'd say no.....

Excellent post

[BayStateBass]

I really enjoyed reading this post. Very well written and hits the nail on the head.

In reference to the original "letter", I don't think it could be more honest or accurate. As far as bands go, you have to decide what type of band you want to be and why you do it. There's no wrong answer here, but if you do a little soul searching you'll be able to figure out what venues fit your band and possibly avoid the frustration that comes along with being in the wrong place for what you do.

When we got our break (locally) we did well. We were a "guest" at the show of another band and did a partial set. We were invited back to play with the same band and did about a set and a half the next time. Honestly, we are not as good as the host band. They are better musicians and have a more polished act, but in our case the bartender pulled hard with the club owner to get us back because when we played the register didn't stop ringing. You see, these other guys play a lot of songs that THEY like, and aren't necessarily crowd pleasers, while we throw out the stuff that people enjoy even though many of them are songs that we don't. This bar booked us to play regularly because we sold and promoted their product (when I sing "Friends In Low Places", I encourage the audience to get a drink for that one, and others, too).

Yes, I am a musical whore. I know that when I play, I'm in a room full of people who, in most ways, are thinking "Dance, monkey, dance and sing for me". But I'm okay with that. I understand what my job is when I'm there, and the other guys do, too.

It's all about the register tape at the end of the night.

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Its always going to be symbiotic to work for everyone. I think though, that the original letter writer's point was that bands, at least many he has run into, seem to believe or portray that it is the bar owner's job or obligation to create a scene for the band and for the bar owner to be subservient to the music. Which is an attitude that is highly prevelant.

The bar owner provides you:

1. A place to play, including electricity and sometimes sound.
2. Some built in audience. I don't know any bar that doesn't have a few locals and regulars.
3. A venue that you can advertise as playing, and that you can use to build a following. Otherwise you are still in your basement or garage.
4. Some compensation for doing something you love to do.
5. Some advertising.

What you provide:

1. Entertainment for his bar/regulars.
2. Some audience/patronage that comes from your following.
3. Some advertising of the venue.

Just numerically here you bring less to the table to start. You also don't provide necessarily a product the patrons wish to consume (thrash metal band, for example, at a tiki bar)

Your band is your BUSINESS, and his bar is his BUSINESS. You both get out of it what you put into it.

If you actually draw, and draw well, and can prove it, bar owners will knock on your door and have you back a ton. And you can command a decent pay and get it. If you provide his only draw, you are even more in the driver's seat.

If you are counting on the bar to provide you an audience and draw, you have zero power and you can't complain, as they are providing you the place and the possibility of gaining an audience.

I have had some pretty tough run ins with bar and club owners over the years, including one that landed me in jail for a night (a story for another time.) But most of them are not out to screw you. They are trying to make a buck. When you consider that the purchase price of the average liquor license in NJ starts around $500K (you can find a few in crappy towns cheaper, better towns some over $1M) the bar owner already has a half years profit tied up before he can even serve one customer. Then he has to buy supplies, pay for gas, electric, property taxes, business licenses and fees, etc., and he has quite an investment.

So if a club owner seems a little disinterested in your bands financial plight, understand, he has already spent 100-1000 times what you invested in your little local cover band. So if he wants you to help him make $$$$, its clearly understandable.

Now, no club owner should treat you like crap, and bands MUST stand together and not underbid each other and also not play at bars that have screwed other bands. That way you can efffect the bar's pocket book if you do have a following he needs. If a bar can't find decent entertainment or ways to draw people in, it will become a money loser quickly and close, like so many, many do.

So before so many of you get on your high horses here, also remember that the money you let the bar owner pay you was agreed upon. And you make squat, because you are all competing against each other and under pricing yourselves. Also, like the bar owner said, you better be bringing your A game at all times. Not just musically, but professionally, Dress like a band, put up lights and banners like a band. Act like a band someone would want to see. Make sure you carry yourself in a manner that says professional. Otherwise, you will always be under bid by the local hobbyist and guys who just want to play for fun and are happy to walk out of a bar with $50 in their pocket. And there are TONS of them.

There is a band here called LifeSpeed that has been packing Bar A for about a decade now on Tuesday nights, even in the winter. They not only are an amazingly good cover band, they have worked with the bar to come up with integrated promotions. They get paid about three times what the average band does here for a weekend gig, and they get it for a Tuesday. They are always dressed in "costume". they always put on a show, and they are always good with the fans at Bar A, so it reflects well not only on them but also on the bar. Basically they are worth every penny.

Can you or I say that everytime we play a gig, that everytime we walk into a bar or club, we are truly worth every penny? Have we really done EVERYTHING we can and should? If you wore shorts and a T shirt even once, I'd say no.....

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Slowgypsy

Excellent post

I concur!

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

Utter nonsense. Bars promote everything else, from karaoke nights, to buffets, to poker tournaments, etc. Why the hell is live music any different? Do you think the guy who hosts the quiz night is expected to promote it as well? Please.

Maybe I was too short in my reply (I tend to waffle).
Yes, its the venues responsibility, but most bars follow the model of "make money", not "promote bands".

If the band want to guarantee a successful night, and their pre-gig research shows the venue aren't pulling their weight promotion wise, it falls on the band to self-promote at that point.

Oh, and any event organiser (not venue) should self-promote, regardless of the activity being promoted. That's having a personal stake in the success of the event IMHO.

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Only touring original bands do any self promo here. Cover bands show up and play for whoever happens to be there.

There are a few gig guides, weekly and monthly, which catch most gigs between them. They probably get a little extra business from that but mostly it's the general cache of the venue that provides the draw.

There is no advertising of cover bands. If you bolster the inbuilt crowd you get another gig.

+1. That's pretty much how it is here too. There are very few "premier live band bars", but plenty of "premier drinking establishments that might have a band jammed in the corner"

[Depth_Charge]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I definitely don't agree with that. If the bar's business model is to be a premier live music venue then it'd only make sense that they promote the bands they have playing there. That's not to say it's their sole responsibility and that the bands don't have to do anything, but to put it completely on the band is asking for trouble.

Like you said, IF...
But most bars do not exist to be a "premier live music venue". They exist to be the premier drinking establishment.
Whatever entertainment draws the crowds in will do, and with the revolving door of cover bands being what it is, its up to each and every band to seperate themselves from the herd. This is not achieved by just being "the band on the night" and depending on the venue to promote them on their behalf.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Its always going to be symbiotic to work for everyone. I think though, that the original letter writer's point was that bands, at least many he has run into, seem to believe or portray that it is the bar owner's job or obligation to create a scene for the band and for the bar owner to be subservient to the music. Which is an attitude that is highly prevelant.

The bar owner provides you:

1. A place to play, including electricity and sometimes sound.
2. Some built in audience. I don't know any bar that doesn't have a few locals and regulars.
3. A venue that you can advertise as playing, and that you can use to build a following. Otherwise you are still in your basement or garage.
4. Some compensation for doing something you love to do.
5. Some advertising.

What you provide:

1. Entertainment for his bar/regulars.
2. Some audience/patronage that comes from your following.
3. Some advertising of the venue.

Just numerically here you bring less to the table to start. You also don't provide necessarily a product the patrons wish to consume (thrash metal band, for example, at a tiki bar)

Your band is your BUSINESS, and his bar is his BUSINESS. You both get out of it what you put into it.

If you actually draw, and draw well, and can prove it, bar owners will knock on your door and have you back a ton. And you can command a decent pay and get it. If you provide his only draw, you are even more in the driver's seat.

If you are counting on the bar to provide you an audience and draw, you have zero power and you can't complain, as they are providing you the place and the possibility of gaining an audience.

I have had some pretty tough run ins with bar and club owners over the years, including one that landed me in jail for a night (a story for another time.) But most of them are not out to screw you. They are trying to make a buck. When you consider that the purchase price of the average liquor license in NJ starts around $500K (you can find a few in crappy towns cheaper, better towns some over $1M) the bar owner already has a half years profit tied up before he can even serve one customer. Then he has to buy supplies, pay for gas, electric, property taxes, business licenses and fees, etc., and he has quite an investment.

So if a club owner seems a little disinterested in your bands financial plight, understand, he has already spent 100-1000 times what you invested in your little local cover band. So if he wants you to help him make $$$$, its clearly understandable.

Now, no club owner should treat you like crap, and bands MUST stand together and not underbid each other and also not play at bars that have screwed other bands. That way you can efffect the bar's pocket book if you do have a following he needs. If a bar can't find decent entertainment or ways to draw people in, it will become a money loser quickly and close, like so many, many do.

So before so many of you get on your high horses here, also remember that the money you let the bar owner pay you was agreed upon. And you make squat, because you are all competing against each other and under pricing yourselves. Also, like the bar owner said, you better be bringing your A game at all times. Not just musically, but professionally, Dress like a band, put up lights and banners like a band. Act like a band someone would want to see. Make sure you carry yourself in a manner that says professional. Otherwise, you will always be under bid by the local hobbyist and guys who just want to play for fun and are happy to walk out of a bar with $50 in their pocket. And there are TONS of them.

There is a band here called LifeSpeed that has been packing Bar A for about a decade now on Tuesday nights, even in the winter. They not only are an amazingly good cover band, they have worked with the bar to come up with integrated promotions. They get paid about three times what the average band does here for a weekend gig, and they get it for a Tuesday. They are always dressed in "costume". they always put on a show, and they are always good with the fans at Bar A, so it reflects well not only on them but also on the bar. Basically they are worth every penny.

Can you or I say that everytime we play a gig, that everytime we walk into a bar or club, we are truly worth every penny? Have we really done EVERYTHING we can and should? If you wore shorts and a T shirt even once, I'd say no.....

This should probably be stickied.

[socialleper]

The writer has a point, but his audience is very specific. There are some guys that only want to make a little money playing other people's music on a regular basis. They are utilitarian entertainment. If that's your thing, cool; dress nice, smile a lot and play the most vanilla stuff you can think of.
The conflict comes where that's not what a band wants. A band that wants to get signed and "be somebody" needs to play originals, dress outrageous and have something memorable about them. You don't have be a jerk, try to bum drinks, and trash the place; but playing nice polite music in your nicest polo shirt ain't gonna get you a record deal.

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by socialleper

The writer has a point, but his audience is very specific. There are some guys that only want to make a little money playing other people's music on a regular basis. They are utilitarian entertainment. If that's your thing, cool; dress nice, smile a lot and play the most vanilla stuff you can think of.
The conflict comes where that's not what a band wants. A band that wants to get signed and "be somebody" needs to play originals, dress outrageous and have something memorable about them. You don't have be a jerk, try to bum drinks, and trash the place; but playing nice polite music in your nicest polo shirt ain't gonna get you a record deal.

The letter from the club owner talks about clubs in Tampa, probably actually Ybor City. Which are 99% cover bands.

As for originals, there are specific venues that offer that to their customers. Those places, normally, work on "I have just enough to eat" profit. They do it mostly for the love.

Even if you are an original band, which I have been priviledged to have been in many and on a major label, and you are playing a typical cover establishment, you better play the stuff that is viable to his audience. Meaning, for example, if you play "Screamo" music, don't play the local tiki bar. If your original band is more like, say, Jessie Jay, then obviously you shouldn't be playing bars that cater to metal heads. And still you have to do most of all the other stuff the club owner asks. Again, the bar is HIS business, and he is hiring you to add to the bottom line. He is not bringing you in so YOU can gain a following, he is not there to further your career, nor manage for you. He is paying you to play and to help sell booze and food.

Again, a club owner has invested much, much, much more then you ever will into your band, so if he seems to not care if you are an original band trying to make it, understand. He has to pay the bills everyday. Most bands, especially original bands, don't make any money, so its not your full time job.

Maybe that is another point to make. If any of the posters here who had negative things to say about the club owner were actually making their full time living wage playing music, you would probably not say what you did. You would clearly understand it. Most musicians and bands are nice side income that is fun to do. So, I say, lose the attitude. Suck it up. He is paying you. If you were paying him, what would you expect him to do to ensure your success?

[Slowgypsy]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

The letter from the club owner talks about clubs in Tampa, probably actually Ybor City. Which are 99% cover bands.

As for originals, there are specific venues that offer that to their customers. Those places, normally, work on "I have just enough to eat" profit. They do it mostly for the love.

Even if you are an original band, which I have been priviledged to have been in many and on a major label, and you are playing a typical cover establishment, you better play the stuff that is viable to his audience. Meaning, for example, if you play "Screamo" music, don't play the local tiki bar. If your original band is more like, say, Jessie Jay, then obviously you shouldn't be playing bars that cater to metal heads. And still you have to do most of all the other stuff the club owner asks. Again, the bar is HIS business, and he is hiring you to add to the bottom line. He is not bringing you in so YOU can gain a following, he is not there to further your career, nor manage for you. He is paying you to play and to help sell booze and food.

Again, a club owner has invested much, much, much more then you ever will into your band, so if he seems to not care if you are an original band trying to make it, understand. He has to pay the bills everyday. Most bands, especially original bands, don't make any money, so its not your full time job.

Maybe that is another point to make. If any of the posters here who had negative things to say about the club owner were actually making their full time living wage playing music, you would probably not say what you did. You would clearly understand it. Most musicians and bands are nice side income that is fun to do. So, I say, lose the attitude. Suck it up. He is paying you. If you were paying him, what would you expect him to do to ensure your success?

This is all good advice

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Like you said, IF...
But most bars do not exist to be a "premier live music venue". They exist to be the premier drinking establishment.
Whatever entertainment draws the crowds in will do, and with the revolving door of cover bands being what it is, its up to each and every band to seperate themselves from the herd. This is not achieved by just being "the band on the night" and depending on the venue to promote them on their behalf.

Too true, that's why I was sure to include that 'if'

That said, I know plenty of venues who want to be a premier drinking establishment and still do zero promotional work for their place. A bad business owner is going to be a bad business owner regardless of their supposed niche