PA/Sound Recommendations

[twistdpair]

For those that do your own sound, what equipment do use? What size venues do you play? What kind of music?
What is the composition of your band (guitars/vox/drums, etc.)? Do you someone else man the board? What outboard components do you find essential?

We do our own sound at venues that do not have in-house sound, and it's a struggle. We have an FOB (Friend Of Band) man the board. But we are always battling with stage volume and feedback, and it's a b*tch to schlep the gear. Does anyone have any advice, suggestions or experience?

Here's our gear...I don't know if we're missing anything critical:

Mackie 24x4 board
Pair of JBL mains (2x15 + horn) + power amp
Pair of JBL powered subs
Rane xover
Alesis FX for send/ret
16x4 100' snake
Behringer EQ for mains
Pair of Mackie powered monitors
Pair of JBL EonG15 used as monitors

Guitar player 1 - stereo out of Line6 + vox
Guitar player 2 - stereo out of Line6 + vox
Keys - stereo out
Drums - bass drum, snare and overhead mics
Bass - DI + vox
Diva - vox

We play bars - big and small. We play pop, rock, R&B and some hip hop.

Some of our issues:
Drummer has dynamics, but both his drums and playing can be loud. This messes with stage volume.
Perhaps because of stage volume, we are always fighting feedback.
The singer is always complaining that she cannot hear herself, but when the monitors are bumped we return to the feedback issue.

Should we have compressors or gates for any of the instruments? Would you recommend processing the mains signal with a BBE Sonic Maximizer or similar? Anyone have any experience with feedback eliminators or the "speaker management systems" such as the DBX Driverack? Are the three channels of EQ on the board sufficient to get a good sound out of all the instruments?

Any advice is appreciated. We're less than a year old and still learning.

Thanks to all!

-cork

[Vanceman]

Are you playing venues so big that you have to mic the drums? Are the drums in the monitor mix? It seems like overhead mics would contribute greatly to the feedback.

We don't usually have feedback issues, but then again, we only have half the PA you do. We also get compliments on our volume level. For small bars, we use a pair of 1x15 + horn for the mains, and a pair of 1X12 floor monitors. The bass is not in the PA, but we have keys and 1 guitar with Line6 into the PA and 5 vocalists, and soon will add the kick drum. Does anybody have any ideas about using an outboard compressor?

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by twistdpair

Here's our gear...I don't know if we're missing anything critical:

About 3-4 EQ units, for starters. At least one for mains(preferably two), and one for each monitor mix. Each of those a 31 band graphic, or 5 band parametrics for the monitors if you prefer. It's no wonder you have feedback issues.

A DriveRack is a powerful tool. At least hire a qualified operator for a few shows to get you on the right track if you invest in one. JMHO, but forget about feedback widgets and "enhancers" until your basic system is bomber.

[F-Clef-Jef]

Get rid of the monitors and go to in-ears! Problems solved. (okay, there may be some new problems, but at least they are easy to carry!) Might be worth looking into, we use them, not wireless though, but since we all use guitar cables or don't move around much (keys, drummer), we just run the in-ear cable attached to our guitar cables, it really works well, and it's cheap. We also use a Shure Auxpander, so each of us (four of us) gets our own stereo mix, I can hear everything perfectly, every night, and it's never too loud or too quiet. Oh ya, no one uses an amp either (Line6 PodXtL's for guitar & bass), everyone is plugged in direct, (well, except drums, but the drummer maintains pretty good control of his volume). I can carry my "amp", monitors, all cables, and all the gear I need in one small wheeled suitcase.

[Barisaxman]

In Ears would help, but since you've already got a nice setup, do as was previously mentioned and get some 31 band EQ's on those monitors so you can properly eq out the offending frequencies. And I'd avoid Behringer EQ's if at all possible. They tend to cause more problems than they fix. Peavey, Ashley, dbx....anything but a Behringer. Then make sure your sound guy take the time to learn how to wring out the monitors before the performace and you'll be in a lot better shape than you are now.

[twistdpair]

We have the Behringer stereo 31-band on the mains, and the FOB running the board has been bringing his 31-band for the monitors. Maybe he's not good enough with it...?

Does anyone have any experience using a drum shield/screen - those acrylic barriers that isolate the drummer? I'm wondering if that could help with our stage volume issues.

[JKT]

make an honest assessment of your stage volume and if need be turn it down.

Consider a drum screen

EQ on the monitors is no good if not used properly

Compression on your monitor mix can sometimes get you more gain before feedback but I sense this is not your main problem

Can you put your complaining vocalist in a more sonically friendly place on stage?

In ears are great if you have the dough for a decent set-up

You probably have enough board capability for at least one other monitor mix if you can swing the additional amp,EQ,etc.

+1 to ringing out the sound ahead of time.

EQ tip: periodically, and especially in a new or difficult audio environment, zero out the EQ's and start from scratch. You will almost alway end up with more gain and more clarity.

EQ tip#2: If I had to make a choice, I would rather have more EQ and processing on the monitors than on the mains.

FOB's are great IF, they realize 1) less is more and 2) their own limitations.

JKT

[hunta]

Originally Posted by twistdpair

We have the Behringer stereo 31-band on the mains, and the FOB running the board has been bringing his 31-band for the monitors. Maybe he's not good enough with it...?

Or maybe it's a Behringer

Does anyone have any experience using a drum shield/screen - those acrylic barriers that isolate the drummer? I'm wondering if that could help with our stage volume issues.

Those are generally for isolating other stuff out of the drum mics. I don't think it would do much for your stage volume. You'd have to encase the entire drumset and the drummer in a plastic shield for that to work.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by twistdpair

We have the Behringer stereo 31-band on the mains, and the FOB running the board has been bringing his 31-band for the monitors. Maybe he's not good enough with it...?

Are you running just a single monitor mix then? Your Eons and the Mackies will likely require much different EQ curves for maximum gain before feedback. I'll bet if you can split your monitors to two like pairs with separate EQ for each pair you'll find things improve immediately. But using EQ well is an acquired skill too. Also, do you guys really understand how to best place you monitors in relation to your mikes?

Does anyone have any experience using a drum shield/screen - those acrylic barriers that isolate the drummer? I'm wondering if that could help with our stage volume issues.

That definitely can help in many instances IME. I rarely mix bands where it'd be necessary though, so maybe someone else can chime in.

[Vanceman]

Originally Posted by twistdpair

Does anyone have any experience using a drum shield/screen - those acrylic barriers that isolate the drummer? I'm wondering if that could help with our stage volume issues.

Ah, the cone of silence.

[CincyBassMan]

I think some of your problem is with the overhead drum mics. IME the snare & tom mics adequately pickup the ride and hi-hat. Also, the overall stage volume is really important. If possible, try playing a song with monitors only. Adjust the monitor mix for everyone then bring up the FOH.

My $0.02, YMMV, etc...Russ

[modulusman]

Let me guess JBL JRX125s for the mains? If so, get rid of them and buy something decent. You need graphic EQs on every aux send you are using. Maybe get the lead vocalist some IEMs. Last but not least kick your drummer in the nads and make him play softer.

[twistdpair]

JKT: I agree, we need to be more conscious of the stage volume and a big part of that is the drummer. We'll have to have a discussion. Also, a drum screen is a consideration.

Hunta: Yeah, I have noticed that the Behringer is not so great. Enough to scrape by, but that's about it. Also, I was under the impression that the drum screen was to keep the drums out of other mics (and other musicians' ears!)

PassinWind: As for the EONs, they are used to send some kick, vox and keys to the keyboard player and drummer (2nd mix) and are generally not too loud. Do you have any recommendations for monitor/mic placement?

Cincybass: Yeah...I think we need to ditch the overheads

modulusman: They are an older set of JBLs...I forget exactly what they are - not the JRX. But the subs are JRX it's what I could afford. Yes, we need more EQ. Nobody will spend the money that is necessary to buy decent IEMs, and I have already bought everything else so I am tapped out. And yes, I am fixing to target the drummers scrotal region before too much longer.

In summary, I think I've received a lot of very good advice.

To do:
* Pick up a few channels of decent 31-band EQ to replace Behringer and use for 2 monitor mixes.
* Learn a bit more about monitor and mic placement.
* Either get the FOB to improve skills or replace him.
* Try to get the drummer to invest in a drum screen.
* Try (in vain) to get singer to buy IEMs.
* Nail down sound check process.
* Polish my nut-kicking boots.

Thanks to all for the great advice...

-cork

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by twistdpair

Also, I was under the impression that the drum screen was to keep the drums out of other mics (and other musicians' ears!)

In relation to the drum screens, if its going to keep sound in then it's also going to keep sound out and vice versa.


I think one of the key things with placing the monitors is to have the butt of the mic pointing at the centre of the speaker. This depends on the pick up pattern of the mic. But usually the place where you plug in the cable is where the mic is worst at picking up sound. Check to pick up pattern for the mic. Its usually a little bubble type diagram around a picture of the mic. Where the bubble is closest to the mic that where you want to point the monitor.You want the mic getting the least amount of sound from the monitors.

Also ringing out the system is a good method for reducing feedback. The basics of it is that you boost the gain then boost each band on the eq till you start to get a little feedback then reduce that band by how much you boosted it. Some bands will be fine other bands will be prone to feedback this way you reduce the frequencies that are troublesome.

If you go with more eqs chances are the singer wont need IEM if you get the system working right. Or if she does get IEM then thats one less eq your going to need.

I have found that a set of hot rods are a great way to keep a drummers volume down. He may not be happy with the sound or the feel of them but they are a lot less cumbersome than horsing drum screens around. Probably cheaper too.

How much of a need is there for the keyboard player to get kick in his monitor? I'd question the drummers need for it as well especially on smaller gigs it. Although having kick in a drummers fold back isn't unreasonable though it may or may not be necessary all the time. Since subs are omni directional there may be enough kick floating around anyway. Also it might help to pull back everything below 100Hz on the singers monitor. No point wasting watts on the most consuming bandwidth which is also pretty useless to her as well.

[Passinwind]

The best bang for buck I've seen is the DBX 231. They work fine, we have one in the rack at the club I work at. Go here, and call for a price. Get on their "A" list too, it's worth it.

As Shadow says, barrel at monitor is the standard default for cardioid mikes. But if you're using tight pattern mikes (Beta58, SM 87, etc) something like 45-60 degrees off works better. The Shure literature addresses this, or you could hang a little at Prosoundweb and work through the study halls and many great posts on the forums there. Don't post until you barely need to ask though!

PS: I use omni overheads all the time, usually with just a kick mike. Just works better for the style bands I do in that particular room. It never gives me any problems at all, since only the kick ever goes to the monitors. But if they're giving you problems, by all means try a different miking scheme.

[twistdpair]

Thanks!! You guys are the cat's meow.

I started going through the stuff at prosoundweb already. What a great resource - thanks for turning me on to that.