Pay to play

[thobbinghotrod]

I was just contacted by Nemesis entertainment and it sounded fishy. Searching turned up nothing. Has anyone dealt with this company?

[grifff]

What are they asking you to do? What sounds fishy?

Here's their website from a google search:

http://nemesisentertainment.com/

Sounds like any other booking agency to me. My band books with a local one for the exposure.

[Steve]

I'm all for pay to play.

You pay, I play.

[wetzelman1]

it's ******** and people shouldn't do it, but sometimes you have to. It's just the nature of the business, refusing to pay to play will make you inelgible to play some big shows that may be more helpful in the long run. Just need to decide if it's really worth what they're asking.

[Steve]

from the website,

* All of our gigs are paying gigs. Artists are never charged fees for playing a show.


There's a ray of hope at least.

[rakirksey]

It doesn't look exactly like "pay to play". Hmmm ...

[vagus]

Pay to Play has a much broader definition in my world. A lot of promoters and venues get all butt hurt if you bring it up, but If you have to bring X many people or give out X many coupons to make money it is Pay to Play - Sure no out of pocket cost to you, but your time in promotion and marketing is valuable.

Go to any PR or Marketing firm and you'll see their rates are huge, marketing and PR is hard work and venues/promoters are getting you to do it for free and holding a quota over your head to get paid. Still Pay to Play in my opinion.

Ever band should demand to have some flat guaranteed rate, even if it is small, for showing up, % of door and/or bar too.. All other situations... pay to play.

[Jason P Bass]

It's a fact of the business.

The venue is taking a risk in booking you. You might bring 2 people, you might bring 0 people, you might not show up.

They have to pay their bills every 30 days. They only get so many opportunities to make money to cover their bills. If you're playing on one of the 3 or 4 Fridays in the month, and (for whatever reason) business blows, they have a financial problem.

If your band puts up some money up front (buying tickets to resell, etc.) then some of that pressure is taken off the venue owners. They can take a risk on your "undiscovered" band with "true indy cred" with some guarantee that they won't be financially burned.

And they SHOULD pay you some cut of the door or a flat fee, WHEN you deliver a rockin crowd.

When [name your favorite super-huge band] plays a show at [name your dream stadium], you better believe the band puts thousands of dollars into escrow before the show. That's the "pay to play" - if, for whatever reason, the band backs out, the venue will keep the money in escrow. That's how they can risk paying for all the security, insurance, utilities, vendors, etc. etc. to make a major stadium show happen.

It's just a fact of the business. Play a show is financially risky. If you're willing to put money into the show up front (again, buying tickets to resell) and your band SELLS the tickets, and promotes and promotes and promotes and sells LOTS of tickets, like [name your favorite super-huge band], then you can make a lot of money this way.

Just my humble experience.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Jason P Bass

When [name your favorite super-huge band] plays a show at [name your dream stadium], you better believe the band puts thousands of dollars into escrow before the show.

Where did you come up with that?

My wife has booked national acts at venues. They don't give her squat except the contract and rider.

I know the manager / director of the St. Augustine Amphitheater which books current national acts all the time.
They don't give him squat except the contract rider.

My sister in-law is an event coordinator at Lincoln Center in New York. She doesn't get squat except the contract rider.

[mccartneyman]

Used to be, bands drew people to clubs. But that was when bands were a novelty. Didn't matter who the band was, people came. Bands played for the door or for a set fee if there was a cover charge. Guess that doesn't happen much nowadays, but I've been out of the club circuit for a long time. I have friends in their 20s in bands that routinely either pay a set fee to the club to be allowed to play or have to sell X number of tickets. I can see the club owner's point. but I miss those early days just after the Beatles hit big when the band and club owner could make a buck pretty easily.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

Used to be, bands drew people to clubs. But that was when bands were a novelty. Didn't matter who the band was, people came. Bands played for the door or for a set fee if there was a cover charge. Guess that doesn't happen much nowadays, but I've been out of the club circuit for a long time. I have friends in their 20s in bands that routinely either pay a set fee to the club to be allowed to play or have to sell X number of tickets. I can see the club owner's point. but I miss those early days just after the Beatles hit big when the band and club owner could make a buck pretty easily.

I never thought of it that way, but now that I think about it, alot of us older cats remember those days and road that trian for many years.

People just wanted to hear bands play live, it was as you said a novelty. I remember my band played at this little ting club called Walacesin West Orange NJ. every Friday Night and there was standing room only. Realize that Wallaces is about the size of a closet.

[xgator4u]

Originally Posted by Jason P Bass

It's a fact of the business.

The venue is taking a risk in booking you. You might bring 2 people, you might bring 0 people, you might not show up.

They have to pay their bills every 30 days. They only get so many opportunities to make money to cover their bills. If you're playing on one of the 3 or 4 Fridays in the month, and (for whatever reason) business blows, they have a financial problem.

If your band puts up some money up front (buying tickets to resell, etc.) then some of that pressure is taken off the venue owners. They can take a risk on your "undiscovered" band with "true indy cred" with some guarantee that they won't be financially burned.

And they SHOULD pay you some cut of the door or a flat fee, WHEN you deliver a rockin crowd.

When [name your favorite super-huge band] plays a show at [name your dream stadium], you better believe the band puts thousands of dollars into escrow before the show. That's the "pay to play" - if, for whatever reason, the band backs out, the venue will keep the money in escrow. That's how they can risk paying for all the security, insurance, utilities, vendors, etc. etc. to make a major stadium show happen.

It's just a fact of the business. Play a show is financially risky. If you're willing to put money into the show up front (again, buying tickets to resell) and your band SELLS the tickets, and promotes and promotes and promotes and sells LOTS of tickets, like [name your favorite super-huge band], then you can make a lot of money this way.

Just my humble experience.

^ HORSE HOCKEY !

If the bar has a bad night it is not the bands fault unless they suck, and drive the customers away. The venue should take more responsibility in promotion of not only the shows they book, but in the venue as well. This is done through advertising, effective marketing, and developing a reputation as an establishment where people can always be assured of quality entertainment, and a good time.

I have played many, many larger venues, and have never been required, or even asked to put money into escrow to cover a no show. That is what contracts, and lawyers are for. If you fail to show, and violate the terms of the contract, you will be sued for breech of contract. Again the responsibility of having a crowd there to play to is the responsibility of the venue/promoter, or whoever it is that hires your band as the evenings entertainment. If they do not think you will be a profitable risk, then they should contact, and contract a better band.

[BigOldHarry]

In so-cal, it's gigmasters and I have to say, it has paid off. Good paying gigs for not much money. It rubs me the wrong way (yet another company leaching musicians) but a gig's a gig.

[JAUQO III-X]

Charging a band or solo artist to pay to play is a scam.




Bottom line..

[Steve]

Originally Posted by xgator4u

I have played many, many larger venues, and have never been required, or even asked to put money into escrow to cover a no show.

Quite the contrary. Every real contract I've ever seen has required the talent buyer to provide a substantial security deposit to the talent. Not the other way around.
My wife just sent a $5000 check to Dave Mason's agent about a month ago. The show is in April. If she doesn't fulfill the rider specs, he's well within his rights to say thanks for the check, get back into the limo and leave.

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Charging a band or solo artist to pay to play is a scam.




Bottom line..

.... No matter which way you, or somebody else tries to spin it.

[xgator4u]

Originally Posted by Steve

Quite the contrary. Every real contract I've ever seen has required the talent buyer to provide a substantial security deposit to the talent. Not the other way around.
My wife just sent a $5000 check to Dave Mason's agent about a month ago. The show is in April. If she doesn't fulfill the rider specs, he's well within his rights to say thanks for the check, get back into the limo and leave.

No sir you misred my post. I SAID, I have played many, many large venues, and I " notice the I" have not been required to post money to guarantee a now show. The post I was responding to stated that bands have to post monies in escrow to cover the venue in the event of a no show. This is NOT my experience. The venue on the other hand may well have to post monies in order to assure the band that they will be paid even if the venue is unable to host the show without proper advance notice, as stipulated in the contract.As well as abiding to any rider.

But I assure you the artist is not going to post money in advance to cover the venue, that is the reason for the contract, and the reason that lawyers get fat on breech of contract suits.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by xgator4u

No sir you misred my post. I SAID, I have played many, many large venues, and I " notice the I" have not been required to post money to guarantee a now show. The post I was responding to stated that bands have to post monies in escrow to cover the venue in the event of a no show. This is NOT my experience. The venue on the other hand may well have to post monies in order to assure the band that they will be paid even if the venue is unable to host the show without proper advance notice, as stipulated in the contract.As well as abiding to any rider.

But I assure you the artist is not going to post money in advance to cover the venue, that is the reason for the contract, and the reason that lawyers get fat on breech of contract suits.

It was my intent to post in agreement with your initial statement. Sorry. My bad.

Contrary in that not only does the talent not put money upfront. They are the ones that get money upfront.

[xgator4u]

Originally Posted by Steve

It was my intent to post in agreement with your initial statement. Sorry. My bad.

Contrary in that not only does the talent not put money upfront. They are the ones that get money upfront.

^ Correct, and as I see it that is as it should be. If some venue wanted ME to post monies up to ensure I would not no show, they would be invited to piss off, and be guaranteed that I am NOT gonna show.

[Steve]

No $#!%. Go ask Metalica for front money and see what happens.

Pay to play and "front money" is something that is confined to low level original music acts only. Thank God. They have nobody to blame but themselves for that.

Back in the day, you'd play covers, get paid...work in a few originals...get paid...add a few more...get paid...work your way up to all originals...get paid.

Somewhere along the line original music guys got all snotty and self righteous about music and started to get bent over. Paying your dues is one thing, paying someone elses is another. EVERYBODY has bills to pay every month, even musicians.

IMHO YMMV