Pimp my stage plot (and recommend better mics)?

sleeplessknight · #1 02-04-2013, 10:06 PM

Hey all, so I spent some time in Visio this afternoon putting together a stage plot for my 8-piece funk band Soulphonic. This is the first time outside of college A/V club and theater I've ever drawn up a stage plot, would y'all mind checking it out and making recommendations on how I might be able to improve it?

I'm especially curious if the mic choices I have are sane. I personally only own 3x SM58s and 4x SM57s, the drum mics I found via some quick Googling, and the rest are contributed by various other band members. The tax return this year is going to go towards fleshing out the PA, who do you all like for microphones (drums, vocals, horns... you name it)?

Edit: updated with stage measurements and more specific IEM wording

PDF Download

**jive1** · #2 02-04-2013, 10:27 PM

Having just run into this issue, you should have measurements in your stage plot. I am talking to a client about an event, and one of the details is the size of the stage. Since they have to rent it out per 4x4 section, they wanted an accurate size. They initially were going for 8x8, and I almost agreed until I actually measured it out. Now, we're going with 16x12 so we can keep the wedges and stands off the dance floor.

derrico1 · #3 02-05-2013, 05:20 AM

Your note that "all 5 vocals are important" probably should read "all seven vocals..."

Since everyone's on IEMs, you should specify how many aux mixes you'll need and how they're grouped (bass and drums share same IEM mix, horns share, etc).

BTW, if you're looking for mic upgrades, my first candidate would be your drum OHs.

jaywa · #4 02-05-2013, 07:11 AM

I'm a little unclear on your monitoring situation.

Do you travel with your own IEM system that gets looped into the hired system? Or is the P.A. company supposed to provide all the IEM gear except earbuds?

If it's the first situation you might want to elaborate on your needs around that piece quite a bit -- if not on the stage plot, on your tech rider. Some of the pro sound companies I've run into around here have been taken aback when we show up with our self-contained IEM system (wireless transmitters, mixing board, etc.) and want to tie it into theirs (which usually is set up for wedges). They can get it done but it takes a lot of time and a lot of Q&A.

Otherwise everything looks good and is plotted out logically.

**jive1** · #5 02-05-2013, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derrico1

BTW, if you're looking for mic upgrades, my first candidate would be your drum OHs.

I agree. I have used SM57s as overheads, but prefer a condenser mic. Never used a SM58 for anything other than vocals, but I'm sure that's not the only application it can be used for.

sleeplessknight · #6 02-05-2013, 03:02 PM

Thanks for all your input, guys! I'll get a spiffed-up version done this week and re-upload. In the meantime, what brands and models of microphone should I look at? What are more 'traditional' choices for overhead drum mics, etc?

Munjibunga · #7 02-05-2013, 05:17 PM

SM58s for vocals are fine. For overheads, I usually use Rode mics - NT-3, NT-4 (stereo) or NT-5 (stereo pair). The sound excellent and don't break the bank (too much). I like the Audix D6 for kick drum, but the Beta 52 is fine also.

AltGrendel · #8 02-06-2013, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

SM58s for vocals are fine. For overheads, I usually use Rode mics - NT-3, NT-4 (stereo) or NT-5 (stereo pair). The sound excellent and don't break the bank (too much). I like the Audix D6 for kick drum, but the Beta 52 is fine also.

That pretty much covers mikes. OP, what are you going to do about monitors?

ErebusBass · #9 02-06-2013, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I like the Audix D6 for kick drum, but the Beta 52 is fine also.

These are both excellent kick drum mics, but I prefer the Audix D6.

sleeplessknight · #10 02-06-2013, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltGrendel

OP, what are you going to do about monitors?

The band has an Audiotechnica IEM system (single mix for now), so we don't need floor wedges. I'll make sure to add more detail to that in the tech rider.

We also have a full PA (Mackie 2404 VLZ3 board, JBL Eon G2 powered speakers, 100' audio snake, etc) so we don't NEED to rent (unless we're playing at anything bigger than a small/medium sized club). The stage plot is mainly for weddings/corporate gigs that want to hire us, so they know how much space we cram into.

Also, just updated the PDF with measurements, better IEM wording, etc.

eriky4003 · #11 02-06-2013, 10:26 AM

SM58's are okay for vox and are an industry 'standard' but leave a lot to be desired. The Beta 58's are really nice and will increase gain before feedback. Another value vocal microphone we use are ElectroVoice 767 (in particular) and 967 (more $$). Same could be said for the Sennheiser 935 & 945 or Audix 5 or higher model number.

jimc · #12 02-06-2013, 10:56 AM

I'm surprised you have an SM58 on the guitar cab, almost always a 57.

sleeplessknight · #13 02-06-2013, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimc

I'm surprised you have an SM58 on the guitar cab, almost always a 57.

So, this is where my ignorance is going to get a little blinding, but... I always thought SM58s and SM57s were for the most part interchangeable? I tend to give the horn players 57s for their horn and 58s for their vocals, but that's just because "I've seen it done elsewhere". Is there a "band PA design and setup... For Dummes" book out there?

jimc · #14 02-06-2013, 12:42 PM

The Yamaha Live Sound Reinforcement is the best book on the subject I've found.

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforc.../dp/0881889008

Maybe it's a bit more advanced than the 'for dummies' stuff but it's really worth putting the time into understanding as it'll improve your live sound a lot.

And throw a 57 on that guitar cab!

RDUB · #15 02-06-2013, 03:27 PM

I've never specified mics for a stage plot for a decent sound company. I let them do their thing to get the best sound. I'm more concerned that they have the correct number of mics, stands, and monitors to cover the band. I do specify the number of monitor mixes, where possible, depending on the band.

**Stumbo** · #16 02-06-2013, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eriky4003

SM58's are okay for vox and are an industry 'standard' but leave a lot to be desired. The Beta 58's are really nice and will increase gain before feedback. Another value vocal microphone we use are ElectroVoice 767 (in particular) and 967 (more $$). Same could be said for the Sennheiser 935 & 945 or Audix 5 or higher model number.

+1 for the Beta 58's. I use one and it's uniform supercardioid pattern for high gain before feedback and superior rejection off-axis sound is great.

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-Beta-Sup.../dp/B0002BACB4

Also check out drum triggers to replace all the drum mics/cables, etc. I seen/heard this work very well. Drummer has own mixer/sound control, one cable to PA. http://www.drummagazine.com/plugged-...ggering-kicks/

Munjibunga · #17 02-08-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimc

The Yamaha Live Sound Reinforcement is the best book on the subject I've found.

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforc.../dp/0881889008

Maybe it's a bit more advanced than the 'for dummies' stuff but it's really worth putting the time into understanding as it'll improve your live sound a lot.

And throw a 57 on that guitar cab!

It's well-written, so it's pretty easy to grasp the concepts.

**jive1** · #18 02-08-2013, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Also check out drum triggers to replace all the drum mics/cables, etc. I seen/heard this work very well. Drummer has own mixer/sound control, one cable to PA. http://www.drummagazine.com/plugged-...ggering-kicks/

It can sound good, and work well, but it's certainly not a plug-and-play solution. You really have to tune and tweak it to the individual drummer, drum set, and trigger. If you don't, you can get cross-talk, false triggers, double triggers, non-triggers, etc. which will really mess with the drummer and the song.

Munjibunga · #19 02-08-2013, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

+1 for the Beta 58's. I use one and it's uniform supercardioid pattern for high gain before feedback and superior rejection off-axis sound is great.

http://www.amazon.com/Shure-Beta-Sup.../dp/B0002BACB4

Also check out drum triggers to replace all the drum mics/cables, etc. I seen/heard this work very well. Drummer has own mixer/sound control, one cable to PA. http://www.drummagazine.com/plugged-...ggering-kicks/

I like the Beta 58s, too. We used to use them in my acoustic trio until we went to Super 55s (for the look, mostly). They have the same capsule as the Beta 58. You have to be careful with the supercardioids, though, if you put your monitors directly behind the mics. While the Betas do have superior off-axis rejection, they have a lobe straight off the back of the mic that will pick up the monitor and scream like a banshee. So you need to put the monitors about 60 degrees off-axis to reduce the potential for feedback. Shure even provides a template for the mic so you can see where the monitors need to go.

When I watch A-list professional musicians on stage on TV, the most common mic I see is the SM58, followed closely by the Beta 58. While there are differences between them, one may sound better than the other depending on the voice of the performer. Frankly, in most performance situations, no one is going to hear the difference between an SM58 and, say, a KSM9 or Neumann KMS-105 (the preferred mic of the world's best female singer, Celine Dion - self-proclaimed).

There are lots of people who will tout their favorite over the SM58 for various arcane reasons, but they're confusing their personal preference with what works for most voices. It's an individual thing. The only mic I've ever tried that I didn't like with my voice is the Heil PR-22, which others swear by. When I record my band, I put our female singer on the KSM9, but I can't say it sounds seven times better than an SM58. Or even a little better. So I think that mic choice is much ado over little.

Eight_Stringer · #20 02-08-2013, 02:31 PM

From the really old days, SM 57 for instruments, SM58 vocals. Done a few low key gigs, as sound bloke recently, the Shure SM58 gave no end of trouble for off axis unwanted feed back, had me tricked until the owner of the mics stated they are Chinese Shure! Any one help with information on non USA Shures? They did not perform like the Shure's used from the 70's no question.