Playing With Inferior Musicians - Chance to Improve, or Waste of Time?

[jaywa]

Would like to know thoughts on this. If you are the best (or nearly the best) musician in your band, why do you keep playing with those people?

A good friend of mine and fellow bassist says he never wants to be in a band where he doesn't feel like he's the "weakest link" because you can only get better by playing with people better than yourself. But I have had a lot of situations lately where I have been playing with others who are less experienced, less prepared or just plain not that good, and I find it very frustrating and wonder if I'm wasting my time. Some of these situations I have control over, others (church band) I do not.

Are there ways I can turn these situations into still helping me become a better player? I hope this doesn't come off as arrogant but I feel like I am losing skills by not playing regularly with others at my level. Thanks in advance.

[Dr. Cheese]

Playing in a band where you are the weakest musically has techincal challenges, but playing in the band where you are the strongest has leadership challenges. Are you capable of raising the knowledge and ability of your bandmates without coming off as arrogant or a jerk? Also, do your bandmates have things beyond techincal ability like feel or "soul" that makes them attractivve as bandmates?

[thesteve]

Regardless of the talent level of those around you, you should still bring your best to the table.

There are definitely situations where the lack of talent makes playing not fun, but IME, as long as the other players are competent and aren't hindering you from bringing your best to the table, then keep on playing. At the end of the day, if you're having fun, I wouldn't worry about whether or not the others are holding you down.

[Toshiro]

Playing music doesn't have to be about improving your playing. It could be about making music with people you like to play music with. It could about making a buck or two. I've stayed in not so great bands at times because I liked what we were doing and like the people.

If, OTOH, you're frustrated with the people you're currently making music with (aside from the church gig) go find other musicians who are a better fit for your skill level. Life is too short to make music with people you don't want to play with.

BTW, think about the reasons playing tends to improve when playing with better players. One reason is that you learn things from those players, but often another -big- reason is that you're forced to sit down and practice to keep up to bring yourself up to that their level. Like any of us, you can still benefit from that aspect, even if you're not playing with "higher level" musicians.

[jaywa]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Playing in a band where you are the weakest musically has techincal challenges, but playing in the band where you are the strongest has leadership challenges.

That's a great summary of the difference.

The most challenging situation(s) for me currently, are ones where people are simply not appreciating the concept of space, layering, dynamics, etc. That everyone does not have to be playing all the time and that the key to helping a song find its "feel" is to play FEWER notes, not more. I try to give younger players some slack on this cause I didn't pick up on it myself till about 20 years in, but I feel like I'm talking to a wall when I bring this up to a lot of players, even (and especially) guys who have played as long as I have or longer and should know these things by now.

The other frustration I'm having right now specifically in my church band is with people who just refuse to put in any prep time whatsoever. Then the whole rehearsal can only go as fast as they are able to listen to the CD and figure out their parts while the rest of us sit around.

[mjolnir]

You have to look at it from the opposite angle IMHO. Think of it this way, in every band there is that weakest link, the guy that is a little behind but is learning from everyone else as best he can, just like how in every band there's the more advanced, more experienced player who's doing the teaching so the others can grow.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being the experienced guy, because in the end others can benefit from your direction in the exact same way you benefited from someone else's direction whenever you were an inexperienced hack.

[Bassorama57]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Playing in a band where you are the weakest musically has techincal challenges, but playing in the band where you are the strongest has leadership challenges.

+1
Done both; usually prefer to be learing more than I'm teaching. Right now I'm with a guitarist who's technically stunning - a human iPod - and a great singer to boot, but he has no clue what he's doing "theory-wise," so there's a symbiotic relationship thing going. Not at all bad.

[Grantrudd]

if you are looking to improve musically, dont do it. i made this mistake last year in signing up for a rock band class at high school. i was playing in a professional funk group outside of school, which was pushing me hard musically, especially in solos. this rock band class was pretty much a bunch of stoners who were so high that they could not keep a beat, or play anything but power chords. i just decided to work on an album with a guitar player that i had been playing with for a while. unless you are patient, i feel that there is very little payoff for you musically.

[lowendlover]

i have this problem with one of the bands im in. One guitarist is awful, the other one is decent, and the drummer puts all his heart into it, but will just never have groove, and we all know if you don't have it, you never will. But we have great stage presence and make $500+ bucks a gig! (for a rock band thats fairly decent, nothing special but we always get paid) Im always on the edge with how i feel about it

But at the same time, i like to bring all i can to something regardless of the situation, make it my own, or the best it can be. Also, just have side projects with anyone and everyone, cause you never know what will come of it! I find it hilarious that someone posted this thread cause its been the story of my life

[CPplaysBASS]

Not arrogant at all ...

Very timely subject for me personally, after jamming with a bunch of guys who I can never see ever being able to perform well live ... they talk the talk, are truly super guys as friends, but they simply don't practice enough. This band is a cover band - focusing on punk/post-punk/new wave from 1977-84 (we're all 40-ish in age).

I'm in two other bands that are very skilled ... an pop/funk original band, and a Blue Rodeo tribute band (country/rock, very popular band in Canada).

Obviously I'm a little stretched in terms of time between bands, and I'm leaning towards dropping the cover band. But here's what I'm personally getting out of it in the meantime ...

1) the time I spend on my own learning the cover tunes forces me to learn techniques / styles I wouldn't play otherwise.

2) Although I grew up in the 77-84 time period, I was more into hard rock bands at the time and sort of missed enjoying bands like The Clash, Stranglers, XTC, etc. so rediscovering it now is a great experience.

3) Most importantly, I'm challenging myself in this situtation, specifically as the bass player to force the others to follow me ... to help make them play better. We all know in theory, that the bass and drums lay the foundation, but in a lot of bands it seems everyone follows the guitar player (especially in inexperienced bands) ... I figure if I can at least keep things tight with a bunch of loose players, then I'm doing pretty good. Probably not explaining it right, but in the room last night I could sense everyone relying on me to keep it together and I was able to even as others started to fall of the track ... allowing them to get back into the song without it becoming a total train wreck.

With all that said .... I'll probably still give it up soon as trying to spread myself across three bands (althoug I do show up to all practices very prepared) is starting to wear on me!!

If it was an original band or my only band in which the talent level was below my own (and, quite frankly, my "level" is intermediate in my opinion), I wouldn't bother.

[VroomVroom]

I've said this before, but I generally have three criterion for accepting a gig.

1. I'm playing with incredible musicians (and/or people I really like...ideally both).
2. The gig is either for a very good cause, or it's on behalf of family or good friends.
3. I'm making a lot of Samolians.

Like the old baseball adage (pitching, defense, hitting...pick two and win a championship) I love to see two out of the three, and the third factor is certainly the least important. Bottom line for me is that I need to see some sort of inspiration - musicianship or humanity - before saying 'yes' to a call. I want to be the weakest link, but as long as there's listening and interaction involved, I'm satisfied.

[MatticusMania]

Who says you can't learn from playing with inferior players?
I recently joined an alternative/stoner/metal band, kind of like the Melvins meets Kyuss. Totally not the type of music Im used to playing, or even really listening to, Ive heard these bands, like them, but dont regularly listen to them. So here I am, the most skilled person in the band, yet at the same time, the most unexperienced. So in this situation there is a lot of room for me to learn things, despite the fact Im better than them all!

[Lowbrow]

After playing in clubs for about 10 years (started when I was 17), I joined a band of relative newbies who were musical neanderthals to the point that for several weeks I was actually mistaken as to which guitarist was supposed to be the lead player. True.

BUT, the band leader/singer wrote catchy punk/pop songs, sang great, and collectively we had tons of friends and acquaintences. After about only 4 gigs we became the "big" band in town for about 3 years -- to the point that we could expect 200 people we never met to show up at a 7:30 show on a Tuesday night, and every other band in town was begging to open shows for us. We never "made it," naturally, but were very big in our pond (NYC) and it was very satisfying to get that sort of recognition. BTW, the musicians did improve rapidly and we ended up sounding pretty great.

Ces't la vie, you never can tell.

Upshot: Keep an open mind and have fun while you can. Judge not quickly, for everybody brings something to the table, and it's not always musical chops.

[Mojo-Man]

I believe you play to the level around you.

Always strive to improve.

If the band around you can't improve.
At sum point, you must decide why your playing with them?

[pointbass]

My place in the musicianship pecking order is no longer that important to me, but that's because I will not play with bad musicians .... by that I mean players with bad time, really poor gear that doesn't work properly, druggers/drunks, players that can't play in tune, players that don't play the basic right notes/chords, or in other words, people that aren't professional in their approach, mannerisims or playing.

I expect to be playing with people who know what they're doing and are proficient in their playing. They don't have to be Stevie Ray Vaughn or Buddy Rich (heck, I'm no Jaco ), but at a minimum they can't be an embarrassment to the band. Other than that, if the drummer has more experience or skills than me, I'll learn all I can from him. And if I can up the guitar players game a little bit, I'll do my best to help him out. But I can't work with inexperienced rank amatuers, that'd drive me nuts ...

[whitedk57]

Originally Posted by jaywa

Would like to know thoughts on this. If you are the best (or nearly the best) musician in your band, why do you keep playing with those people?

A good friend of mine and fellow bassist says he never wants to be in a band where he doesn't feel like he's the "weakest link" because you can only get better by playing with people better than yourself. But I have had a lot of situations lately where I have been playing with others who are less experienced, less prepared or just plain not that good, and I find it very frustrating and wonder if I'm wasting my time. Some of these situations I have control over, others (church band) I do not.

Are there ways I can turn these situations into still helping me become a better player? I hope this doesn't come off as arrogant but I feel like I am losing skills by not playing regularly with others at my level. Thanks in advance.

I think that the church band is a good way to help the other players get better. In a church group, inexperienced players can get the much needed experience of playing live with other band members. This is the case with me - I am finally able to get experience playing with other musicians and not cause a fuss with the wife.

For the other situations where you're being impeded by these other bandmates, ask yourself if the persons involved are really trying - then go from there.

[rad87gn]

Well, somebody has to be the best in a band and in this situation it just happens to be you! Nothing wrong with being a mentor if people are showing dedication, progress, and you're all having fun. You can also get better by training yourself to get better. Most musicians with some experience know what they need to work on to improve.

[StyleOverShow]

My take is similar to "Pointbass", but I stoop to playing with low grade musicians just to keep active. In my experience, the more stable bands have the same caliber of players (Jazz bands that is) with one weaker player. I was that weaker player for about a year with my regular jazz band. Thanks to them that they had the patience as I converted from an R&B/Rocker to the fine phrasing and techniques of straight ahead jazz.

With our regular drummer we find new intretations of old standards each time we play. Begins to approach real jazz with the solos generating new their own grooves and dynamics. I complain about the replacement drummer we use as he is out of practice, and in general, past his expiration date for freshness.

[stflbn]

The only time that playing with people with less musical talent than myself comes into play for me is when it causes me to be outright embarrassed during a gig or studio session. Once that happens it's inevitable that the parachute is going to be pulled and my escape from future embarrassments assured.

Personally I try to find situations where it's fairly equal talent wise.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

Who says you can't learn from playing with inferior players?
I recently joined an alternative/stoner/metal band, kind of like the Melvins meets Kyuss. Totally not the type of music Im used to playing, or even really listening to, Ive heard these bands, like them, but dont regularly listen to them. So here I am, the most skilled person in the band, yet at the same time, the most unexperienced. So in this situation there is a lot of room for me to learn things, despite the fact Im better than them all!

We need to ask ourselves what makes a player inferior or superior? Does anybody think that Janek Gwizdala can play Reggae better than Family Man or Robbie Shakespeare? Could Jeff Berlin really do Rush better than Geddy or Green Day better than Mike Dirnt?