Playing with people without rhythm who butcher songs

woodsgirl · #1 08-27-2006, 02:28 AM

It seems that there are a lot of people out there who have no rhythm and they just leave a few beats out here and there or add them in, willy nilly. I have been faking it during jams with these people, not easy, but I can do it. However, a couple of us were going to actually try to get a band going which would require playing the songs in time. When I finally had to point out that this one player was playing the song out of time, and worse, and I suggested that we listen to the song on a CD, he just quit, saying it was too much work. I am so discouraged not being able to find anyone decent to play with and playing with these people is so depressing! I know I am not the greatest bass player, but I am not the worst, either, and if I know how the tunes go, I try to play them that way, but these people are impossible to play with. Anyone else experience this?

JimmyM · #2 08-27-2006, 02:43 AM

Welcome to the world of bands.

woodsgirl · #3 08-27-2006, 02:45 AM

When I was 14 years old, it wasn't this bad! These are adults-I thought they would have it together. Are you saying this never gets better>?

JimmyM · #4 08-27-2006, 03:48 AM

Nope. What I'm saying is that it takes work and searching to put a decent band together. Who knows? Tomorrow you may find all the right people. Or it can be another 6 months of weeding out the clowns until you find the right people. It's all in how important it is to you. If it's important enough, you'll find the right bandmates eventually.

Kasper007 · #5 08-27-2006, 04:10 AM

I know what you're talking about, our guitarist was like this too, but he is getting better and better so it doesn't really bother me, esp since we have a good drumster(?). But on the other hand I've noticed that this can be quite fun too, because (don't laugh) he comes up with special things and has his own sense on timekeeping. His sense of timing just reminds me of Bob Dylan, because sometimes he's too early/late but it gives him a unique sound (as long as he doesn't push it too far

)

mrwink · #6 08-27-2006, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodsgirl

When I was 14 years old, it wasn't this bad! These are adults-I thought they would have it together. Are you saying this never gets better>?

I have to deal with this too... since I play with a couple of groups that don't rehearse I'm have to hold on for dear life and play songs the way the guitar players play them - sometimes it's scary, but like you, I make it through and I believe we become better player through this stuff... you can't hang in these situations without developing an acute system of listening and changing up what your doing instantly... I think a simple way to say it is it keeps you on your toes!

Hang in there!

Pbassred · #7 08-27-2006, 04:19 AM

Increasingly I am of the opinion that it is easier to join an established, or nearly established band than to try and get one running on you own. If its not right you can walk out, or not walk in in the first place. You only loose your personal time.

The fact is that it is the most egocentric business on the planet. Most people you will meet aren't as good as they think they are, certainly not as good as they say they are, and don't work nearly as hard as they should.

Try advertising and go to jam nights.

morf · #8 08-27-2006, 07:37 AM

Working a bit with people wouldn't hurt either..

Some people just aren't at their best and may feel a bit overwhelmed at first. Doesn't mean that after a couple of hours of jamming they can't get it together and play solid.

I say give em a chance to feel confident and show you what they really got.

SBassman · #9 08-27-2006, 08:32 AM

Finding people that:

- You are compatible with personally
- Actually have a sense of rhythm

is Extremely difficult. At least in my part of the world.

woodsgirl · #10 08-27-2006, 09:23 AM

Thanks for the input. I guess I should have known that a person who is so egocentric that I could not consider going on a date with, knowing them for years, should have been a clue that they wouldn't take to hearing that they were playing the song wrong. Suggesting listening to a recorded version seemed like the logical thing to suggest. This dude can play the song correctly on guitar, but when he sings, it all goes south. OF course, he can't sing Mustang Sally to a karaoke machine, due to fruity timing, so why would I think he could play it and sing it? I know that I have trouble singing and playing bass, but that means trying extra hard, not walking out. I have played in bands for years, and I never run into this before. However, I heard a band this person was in a couple years ago and it was the worst. I think the idea of maybe trying to find a somewhat established band is a good one, but it hasn 't happened yet.
THis drummer has a friend who is a pretty good guitarist, who just found a lady love and ditched the band. He is willling to play on a limited basis, but they say they want a fancier- they call it "better" bassist. They want a trio and the bassist is supposed to "play lead bass up the guitar players a$$", whatever that means. I asked him if I could try out for this part, whatever that would entail, meaning tell me a couple of the songs ahead of time, but they don't seem to want to do that. Is there something wrong with playing a song that you actually know? At jams, I don't mind playing songs I don't know, and I can do pretty well, improvising all night. But in a band, I want to know the material, and I think I can play well enough to learn a song that is more difficult than most jam songs, but not if no one else want to actually learn the songs. I think they just want it to happen by magic! At least he told us that he thought it was too much work to learn the songs. He just wants to say, " I don't play it like the record" and have that accepted. Only other crappy musicians are going to go for that!

In the same vein, are guys who want you to play their original material because no one can say it has no melody or rhythm and you can't follow that kind of song, either. If you tell them the song needs a melody and cant change every time you play it, and I don't mean improvising here, just changing the words or something, but the length of the verses and stuff, they say that is how it goes.............................

What made this worse, is the poor drummer, who can keep time, kept saying, I will work on this and have it for you next time, rather than, dude, you are playing this totally wrong. The player I am writing about, says " I have been playing this song like this for years", and at the jams, I have been fudging to play it "his way" and maybe that gave him the idea that he was playing it in an understandable fashion? At a jam, you need the skill of following goofy people and playing songs totally off, but I don't want to be in a band that plays that way!!

I grew up in a musical family and we had bands together and apart since we were kids and they were good, now, I see that looking back. Maybe I am spoiled, but all my bands had problems, but never this!

I am taking some guitar lessons and I think what I am going to do is talk to my teacher about this. Their band's bassist sucks, but the rest of them are good. Maybe there is a possibility there. Maybe he will have another idea.

This guy also finished the evening with a comment that I am better on BG than on upright, upright is too twangy. (???) ALso, neither one of these guys helped me load out any equipment, and I even brought 2 guitars for HIM to play! I carried all the stuff up stairs and everything, while they bs'ed.

I was thinking maybe I should just record my own music and be happy with that, and I do have a drummer now, but I do like playing out with others, so I guess the quest goes on.

malicous · #11 08-27-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morf

Working a bit with people wouldn't hurt either..

Some people just aren't at their best and may feel a bit overwhelmed at first. Doesn't mean that after a couple of hours of jamming they can't get it together and play solid.

I say give em a chance to feel confident and show you what they really got.

+1

Very true. If it is a commercial venture, and you are the leader, you can be as critical as you want. If it is a non-paid gig or a volunteer thing, like church bands and charity/fundraiser events, I find that you need to have a lot of patience and give people time to improve. Let them benefit from your good time and feel for rhythm. I know how this has helped some musicians I play with, and how I have improved because people who are better and more experienced than me treated me this way.

DaemonBass · #12 08-27-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasper007

I know what you're talking about, our guitarist was like this too, but he is getting better and better so it doesn't really bother me, esp since we have a good drumster(?).

Did you really say Drumster? LOL...

woodsgirl · #13 08-27-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malicous

+1

Very true. If it is a commercial venture, and you are the leader, you can be as critical as you want. If it is a non-paid gig or a volunteer thing, like church bands and charity/fundraiser events, I find that you need to have a lot of patience and give people time to improve. Let them benefit from your good time and feel for rhythm. I know how this has helped some musicians I play with, and how I have improved because people who are better and more experienced than me treated me this way.

This is a great idea, but after playing through the song many times, he kept saying that my bass was off, not him, although I was tight with the drummer. It was the vocals that were causing the problem, but he didn't even acknowledge it! I have been playing with this guy for several years and he does this all the time, but I thought it was the lack of a drummer that was making it hard for him.

I totally agree that helping people is great! I have been playing with about 3 of these guys who can't keep time or play a song = a song in 4/4 time goes 8 measures of 4/4, then one of 3/4, one of 4/4, maybe a 2/4 measure and then back to 4/4 when it really stays in 4/4 for the entire song.

( I wish for some players that I can improve by playing with.) I just wondered if this was common, and maybe it is, I just thought a drummer would straighten it out.

woodsgirl · #14 08-27-2006, 02:15 PM

Update, drummer called and wants to put somehthing together and he said I did well on bass. So, I feel better. He can keep time and sing. I just had no idea what to do with these people that leave parts out and stick beats into music, but I guess the answer is, move on! Fine by me if they do that in fun events, but not in a band. OK, thanks TB'ers!

AdlerAugen · #15 08-27-2006, 09:17 PM

It doesn't matter if you're paid or not, musicians shouldn't be bothered when someone tells them they suck at keeping time when it's true. All they should be concerned with doing is FIXING it. Paid gigs however, there is definitely a NEED instead of just an earache pending in telling someone they're off-beat. Ways to fix: give him music, time signature, beat chart, and make him write out note for note where every darned beat falls. Then make him count his part aloud while the rest of the band plays.

K2000 · #16 08-28-2006, 03:32 AM

Some people are just terrible with rythym, and have trouble counting and staying in time. Just because somebody can play an instrument, doesn't mean they don't have this problem (and it's definitely a bad problem to have).

I never knew about people like this until recently, when I tried jamming with a good friend of mine, who couldn't internalize the simple rythyms behind "4 measures of this, 4 measures of that" (just a simple basic song). Some people just can't count, they have a bad internal clock or something. Knowing how to play chords on the guitar can't possibly make up for their rythym problems.

markjazzbassist · #17 08-28-2006, 08:00 AM

i usually find that the keys, guitar, and vocalist all have terrible rhythm since they are concentrating on melody. meanwhile, the bass and drums have excellent rhythm, but may lack some melodic content due to their concentration on rhythm.

you need to find musicians who are balanced and have decent melody and rhythm.

ric1312 · #18 08-31-2006, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markjazzbassist

i usually find that the keys, guitar, and vocalist all have terrible rhythm since they are concentrating on melody. meanwhile, the bass and drums have excellent rhythm, but may lack some melodic content due to their concentration on rhythm.

you need to find musicians who are balanced and have decent melody and rhythm.

Actually good singers have timing better than most bassists and drummers and are very sensitive when things are off. The vocal melody is very dependant on the tempo and timing of the song. I started off as just a singer, and this is the reason I was able to start playing bass AND play in time and sing at the same time.

Tingly · #19 09-01-2006, 03:01 AM

woods, ya need to find people who have:

t a l e n t

Bass · #20 09-05-2006, 05:55 PM

I have a similar problem with the guitar player / singer in our band. The songs are just a little different every time, and the drummer and I are never sure where they're going to end. He arranged a gig for last weekend, and we said, whoa! You're going to have to write out these songs (ex intro / chorus / verse / etc..) Of course he didn't.

I thought the guitar is supposed to follow the bass and drums. If the drums and bass know how the songs go, all he has to do is play along (to the songs he wrote). The gig doesnt' seem professional when we have to watch close to predict when the guitars gonna change, end, etc...

Next jam I'm going to refuse to play any song until I see it on paper. This will work well since we practice at my house, and the guitar player plays my head, uses my 4 x 12's, uses my cables, etc...