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  #501  
Old 01-28-2013, 07:19 PM
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That's amazing Icebox!!! God's Family growing exponentially..... Great lookin' axe, but is that one of those funny lookin' nylon thingies in your right hand????? ... Peace,
Alan
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  #502  
Old 01-28-2013, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nick98338 View Post
Are you looking for a place to Worship while you are visiting the area? I don't know of a place, off hand. I can ask around a bit for you.
I'm in and out of town for a few weeks on a project. When out of town, I usually just drop into the first church I run into. Thought I'd see if any TBers are in the area.
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  #503  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaltBass View Post
re: Tempo issues

Click track? We use one regularly... helps the band on non-rhythmically driven songs (especially on the intro & first verse or so). Maybe I'm weird, but I just hear it as another player in the band that is also in the groove... an ally. Our drummer also never fights it. However, whenever we go click-free I find I'm the one who has to drive the tempo.

Thoughts?
I have a drummer without a drum set and he does the stenographer thing with a rhythm/drum machine along with his djembe and cajon. He's always on the one count and kinda drags in between and I always seem to have to drive him I usually wear these sandals that I will do my own click track to, to keep the wheels turning. I would love a click track!
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  #504  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:05 PM
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We did 10,000 Reasons yesterday ... Instrumentally!
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  #505  
Old 01-28-2013, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefff100 View Post
Hey all,

I'm considering picking up an older used Ipad to use as a digital notebook to hold and display sheet music. I see that there is an abundance of software available especially for this purpose.

How many of you are doing this? At our church we are still lugging binders around and my bag is getting out of control. A 4" 3 ring binder that is at capacity with 200+ songs, plus a second smaller binder that holds the stuff that I'm activly working on. Plus add in spare cables, small tools, extra tuner and batteries, its a bit weighty.

I can't justify the price of a new iPad, as I'm not really interested in all the email, web browsing etc. capabilites. Just want to be able to display the music without hassle, preferably with a means to electronically take notes on the score.

thanks,

Jeff
I do this. Use Onsong for this purpose but what really made me pull the trigger on the iPad was its ability to be used in practice and rehearsing. In Onsong you can link to the song if you have it in ITunes you can play along while you follow on the chord chart. Also if you follow the ISO thread you will see that some go thru their iPad with amp modeling software into a DI then to FOH. I don't but have considered it. So 250 for iPad (binder cost money and those clear protectors are expensive), 5 bucks for GK software (has its own play along capabilities) and 100 for an Apogee jam interface and I'm set. Sold my practice amp since the the iPad has all my music and my "headphone" amp in one portable package.
  #506  
Old 01-29-2013, 01:27 AM
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I'm always interested in talk about clicks - I know they can evoke strong feelings for and against. It's something that's on the table for us and I feel like timing is a common weakness for us at the moment. Sometimes when I'm MDing I find myself counting for everyone a lot more than I should - and of course my timing isn't guaranteed to be perfect either.

For those who use clicks, how do you go about it? Who operates it? When do you start and stop, particularly with transitions between songs?

In the meantime I'm working on my own timing by practicing with a metronome and encouraging the team to do the same. I was given a good tip which I tried last night - setting the metronome to just hit the first beat of the bar, then silence. It's a sobering lesson in how much practice I need compared to how good I think I am, particularly on the slow song/whole note combination!
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  #507  
Old 01-29-2013, 01:45 AM
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At Harbour Church, where I attend (And want to play at) they use Aviom system and a click track and the keyboard player rules that. I know all of their original music is worked out on their website with BPM info even though they are very, very spontaneous during Worship.
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  #508  
Old 01-29-2013, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtb777 View Post
At Harbour Church, where I attend (And want to play at) they use Aviom system and a click track and the keyboard player rules that. I know all of their original music is worked out on their website with BPM info even though they are very, very spontaneous during Worship.
I already know the BPM for each song we do. I found a handy free piece of software called "BPM Analyzer" - you point it at a folder full of MP3s and it'll give you the BPM for each - to two decimal places! It sometimes gets confused and will mark a 70bpm song as 140, but that's easily interpreted.
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  #509  
Old 01-29-2013, 02:39 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaltBass View Post
However, whenever we go click-free I find I'm the one who has to drive the tempo.

Thoughts?
This whole issue of "who drives the song" etc. is a sensitive issue for me, but I'm also VERY aware of the fact that each is entitled to his/her opinion (and, of course, they are right; and if there is any doubt, that does mean always!).

The guitarist will always say they are the most important sound, the keys player the keys, the drummer the drummer, et al. But, I've mixed loads of live music and whenever the bassist is listened to by everyone, including the drummer, the whole thing just "comes together". I look at my position (please, I do not do so with a conceited approach, but a very humble one) as being I'm only playing one note at a time. Everyone else has complicated things to do, including a drummer (grief, he/she has four limbs each clocking out a different rhythm!), so why not use my spare capacity and put this into helping everyone keep time.

So, my job, as I see it, is to
1) provide the harmonic foundation for everyone to pitch against, including the vocals (yes, singers really do sing better when they listen to the bass as opposed to e.g. a piano which they can no longer hear because they are singing the same note!),
2) provide a solid groove for the drummer to add little 'flary' bits on top of, and also indicate to everyone where the song should be quieter or provide the drive to propel it to new heights,
3) provide a solid 'down beat' somehow so that everyone can change to the next note (or group of notes) together!

But not forgetting, this is all done under the leadership of the WL. He/she is the bus driver, I'm the engine!

p.s. OK, there will be time the bassist is not playing; this is when the timekeeping 'baton' is gracefully handed to another instrument, including vocals if the need arises, but the moment the bassist comes back in, then whoever was controlling timing needs to realize it's time to hand the 'baton' back to the 'baton master'.

OK, Now, fire away! I know there will those who wanna shoot me down in flames.
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Last edited by MissingHighs : 01-29-2013 at 02:55 AM.
  #510  
Old 01-29-2013, 06:56 AM
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Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
No offense but i am pretty much against click tracks outside of practice. There are many reasons.

IMO if someone can't play in time, they shouldn't be playing a supporting role like bass/drums (well i would be as strong to say on any performance front). It's not hard to learn to count, practice your scales with a metronome and different patterns.
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  #511  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:03 AM
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Location: Utah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Versatek6 View Post
Our MD does what I call a "wounded penguin." ...... She tries to stick her arm straight back from the piano bench and wave it up and down in tempo while still playing and singing....
On the bright side, it gets her left-hand off the keyboard!
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  #512  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoVeryTired View Post
For those who use clicks, how do you go about it? Who operates it? When do you start and stop, particularly with transitions between songs?
We don't use click-tracks per see, but we do occasionally sequence extra tracks for songs, which means that we need to play bang-on with a sequencer.

The BL creates the tracks in ProTools, and runs them from a laptop on stage. He can give the drummer an in-ear click, but the rest of us just get the track through our monitors and (of course... ) we listen to the drummer. We treat it just like an extra band member - sometimes we take close notice of what it does, sometimes less.

In the event of a car crash (hasn't happened yet) the BL can stop the sequence at any time with a foot pedal, and we just continue the song manually.
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  #513  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:09 AM
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There are reasons for click tracks other than keeping tempo. We are looking at using some of the "backing tracks" that are available for a ton of P&W/CCM stuff. We are all on IEM's - although I think just the drummer and I would probably get the click - so it's possible. We have a nice PA system, good FOH, individual monitor mixes, all run by iPad/iPhone, etc.

We are adding things bit by bit. We finally have everyone using IEM's - ad loving it. That was a big step. Last Sunday we added a "talkback" box for the WL so he can talk to use during the service, change songs, etc. That is really nice. I wish we all had one!

The next step for us is one of the new Presonus boards. After that, we may try some backing tracks - ad that 2nd acoustic guitar, percussionist, etc. that we don't have.
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  #514  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingHighs View Post
This whole issue of "who drives the song" etc. is a sensitive issue for me, but I'm also VERY aware of the fact that each is entitled to his/her opinion (and, of course, they are right; and if there is any doubt, that does mean always!).

The guitarist will always say they are the most important sound, the keys player the keys, the drummer the drummer, et al. But, I've mixed loads of live music and whenever the bassist is listened to by everyone, including the drummer, the whole thing just "comes together". I look at my position (please, I do not do so with a conceited approach, but a very humble one) as being I'm only playing one note at a time. Everyone else has complicated things to do, including a drummer (grief, he/she has four limbs each clocking out a different rhythm!), so why not use my spare capacity and put this into helping everyone keep time.

So, my job, as I see it, is to
1) provide the harmonic foundation for everyone to pitch against, including the vocals (yes, singers really do sing better when they listen to the bass as opposed to e.g. a piano which they can no longer hear because they are singing the same note!),
2) provide a solid groove for the drummer to add little 'flary' bits on top of, and also indicate to everyone where the song should be quieter or provide the drive to propel it to new heights,
3) provide a solid 'down beat' somehow so that everyone can change to the next note (or group of notes) together!

But not forgetting, this is all done under the leadership of the WL. He/she is the bus driver, I'm the engine!

p.s. OK, there will be time the bassist is not playing; this is when the timekeeping 'baton' is gracefully handed to another instrument, including vocals if the need arises, but the moment the bassist comes back in, then whoever was controlling timing needs to realize it's time to hand the 'baton' back to the 'baton master'.

OK, Now, fire away! I know there will those who wanna shoot me down in flames.
I've come to realize that my MO should be to help marry the rythm and the melody. As far as time, one of the drummers that I play with has a hard time with a steady tempo, gets slower. It takes a good drummer to alow the bass player to control the time. If i start playing in front of the beat to try and get him to speed up, I don't think he can recognize it. The other drummer plays with a met through his headphones and there's no problem.
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  #515  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
There are reasons for click tracks other than keeping tempo. We are looking at using some of the "backing tracks" that are available for a ton of P&W/CCM stuff. We are all on IEM's - although I think just the drummer and I would probably get the click - so it's possible. We have a nice PA system, good FOH, individual monitor mixes, all run by iPad/iPhone, etc.

We are adding things bit by bit. We finally have everyone using IEM's - ad loving it. That was a big step. Last Sunday we added a "talkback" box for the WL so he can talk to use during the service, change songs, etc. That is really nice. I wish we all had one!

The next step for us is one of the new Presonus boards. After that, we may try some backing tracks - ad that 2nd acoustic guitar, percussionist, etc. that we don't have.
If only the drummer and bassist get the click, what happens when the piano or guitar start the song?
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  #516  
Old 01-29-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dDaddybass View Post
If only the drummer and bassist get the click, what happens when the piano or guitar start the song?
Yeah, that happens a lot. Like I said, we haven't started using it yet. There are a number of tunes that we currently do with pretty "free" intros and we gradually join in and lock in. Not sure how we do that with tracks. Probably can't. Maybe we won't use it on every song. I'm sure we'll learn a lot if/when we go down this road.
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  #517  
Old 01-29-2013, 09:47 AM
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Like the bumper sticker in my vehicles states "Like most musicians, you are following a bass player"

I have always said that bass players are the spinal cord of the band. Without it you'll be paralyzed same situation applies in p&w settings where some worship leaders asks the bass player to turn it up ( within reasonable levels) is always the best compliement.
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  #518  
Old 01-29-2013, 09:56 AM
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Fortunately I play with some real musicians. The drummer and I have played off and on for years. I catch him watching my right hand all the time checking tempo and rhythm. I watch his kick as well. We lock in pretty well.
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  #519  
Old 01-29-2013, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingHighs View Post
This whole issue of "who drives the song" etc. is a sensitive issue for me, but I'm also VERY aware of the fact that each is entitled to his/her opinion (and, of course, they are right; and if there is any doubt, that does mean always!).

The guitarist will always say they are the most important sound, the keys player the keys, the drummer the drummer, et al. But, I've mixed loads of live music and whenever the bassist is listened to by everyone, including the drummer, the whole thing just "comes together". I look at my position (please, I do not do so with a conceited approach, but a very humble one) as being I'm only playing one note at a time. Everyone else has complicated things to do, including a drummer (grief, he/she has four limbs each clocking out a different rhythm!), so why not use my spare capacity and put this into helping everyone keep time.

So, my job, as I see it, is to
1) provide the harmonic foundation for everyone to pitch against, including the vocals (yes, singers really do sing better when they listen to the bass as opposed to e.g. a piano which they can no longer hear because they are singing the same note!),
2) provide a solid groove for the drummer to add little 'flary' bits on top of, and also indicate to everyone where the song should be quieter or provide the drive to propel it to new heights,
3) provide a solid 'down beat' somehow so that everyone can change to the next note (or group of notes) together!

But not forgetting, this is all done under the leadership of the WL. He/she is the bus driver, I'm the engine!

p.s. OK, there will be time the bassist is not playing; this is when the timekeeping 'baton' is gracefully handed to another instrument, including vocals if the need arises, but the moment the bassist comes back in, then whoever was controlling timing needs to realize it's time to hand the 'baton' back to the 'baton master'.

OK, Now, fire away! I know there will those who wanna shoot me down in flames.
Why flame you when you're right? (Not trying to be conceited, just trying to lift you up.)

I see it this way.... A band is like a house. Drums are the slab upon which the house is built. Drums set and maintain tempo and provide drive.

Bass is the foundation walls and maybe part of the floor, helping to further drive and motivate the songs. When the drummer really goes for it, the bass needs to take over the tempo maintenance. When the bass goes for something more melodic, the drummer needs to hang back and keep it steady.

Rhythm guitars are next, representing the house walls. These guitars serve to keep the house together on top of the foundation established by drums and bass. (I'd put keyboards here too, but that's a whole different can of worms.)

The lead guitar uses the foundation and the walls as a guide for melodic playing and staying in time himself.

The singers are the roof. Everything else is really to support the singers and help them give it their all. (Sometimes I need to be reminded of that myself.) Yes, we joke about "How can you tell a singer's at your door? She doesn't know when to come in" and there's my favorite bit about the singer who can't sing the same song in the same key twice. However, we're here to help them.

I will say though, that not every WL knows what an engine's for or how a house is built. I think though, that the bands that operate like you and I've described do very well.
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  #520  
Old 01-29-2013, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starflyer59 View Post
same situation applies in p&w settings where some worship leaders asks the bass player to turn it up ( within reasonable levels) is always the best compliement.
Does this actually happen???????? I've been in situations where I've about turned my amp off and played a song, and people didn't even realize I was gone.
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