Putting an original band together is harder than I'd hoped...

This is more of a vent/airing my thoughts kinda thread, but any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated

Last year I decided that, after years of writing stuff, and a few years playing in blues bands, it was time to take the plunge and put together my own original band. It's something I've always thought about, but never done for various reasons. So I updated my home recording gear and put together some new demos. I'm an all-rounder, bass is my main instrument, but I write, I sing and I play guitar.

After not finding anyone interested or available amongst the musicians I know I advertised for a drummer and guitarist in February. I've been pretty clear, I think, on what the ambitions of the band are - An original rock three piece, playing mainly my original tunes (with some covers or other members originals), aiming to play 1 or 2 gigs a month.

I got lucky and found a good drummer pretty quickly, similar amount of experience, theory knowledge at least as good as mine, broadly similar musical taste, and a common interest in old cars too. We jammed a few times while trying to find a guitarist, we even did a few songs at a jam night as a 2 piece (me playing guitar) which were received quite well. He's learnt my originals quickly, and he likes the tunes too.

After quite a few auditions and a couple of false starts, we found a guitarist. Great player, good gear and reliable, and he has a great bluesy tone, which I wanted, but his musical taste and playing style is more blues orientated than the drummer and I .

We've only had about six rehearsals as a three piece over the last three months due to house renovations,work commitments, people getting sick etc, so it's been hard to get some momentum going. Each rehearsal we seem to end up going over the same three songs, relearning them to some extent. I've given the guys cd's of the songs and basic charts showing chords and song structure. We rehearsed last night and finally did some new cover songs (though the guys hadn't learned them before hand like I'd asked), but I'm hoping we'll get a run of rehearsing once a week for the next 3 or 4 weeks.

Thinking about it now it's clear the drummer is putting in a lot more effort than the guitarist. The drummer knows at least 6 of the originals and spends time at home working out different ideas, and he's memorised the structures of at least three.

So things seem to be moving slower than I'd hoped. I think it's time for me to ask the guitarist to put more effort in, and see what happens. I recorded rehearsal a few weeks ago, and while it has some good moments (and it's very cool to hear my songs come to life with a proper band), overall I was disappointed, particularly with the timing and "groove".

Besides giving the guys cd's of demos, writing charts and giving them songs that sound similar to what I hear in my head, what else can I do to speed up the song learning process? How much practice outside of rehearsal do you or your band members do?

Thanks for listening to my rambling,
chili

[two fingers]

He may not be feeling the music all that much. In other words, if it isn't blues he may not care (thus he may not put forth the effort required to learn the material). My best guess is that it all depends on how many guitarists there are running around where you live. If there are dozens, then have a serious talk with the guy. If they are kind of rare, you may want to put it like this... "Is there anything I can do to help you learn these songs? More detailed charts?" Of course, you will just be "fishing" to see what his thoughts are about the band, songs, you guys etc. He will probably give you enough information to know what to do next. Original music is a very personal thing. You will probably be a bit sensetive when others don't get into your music as much as you like. And he will probably not get on board as enthusiastically as you like if the music isn't what he really wants to be playing. Best of luck to you.

[EddiePlaysBass]

1) Fire the guitarist.
2) Put an ad out for a bass player.
3) You play guitar instead.

I know bass players are harder to come by, and if bass is your main instrument you might enjoy that more, but I am confident that you'll never find a guitarist willing to completely do "your" thing and you'll always be moderately disappointed with the outcome.

Just my 2 cents.

[P. Aaron]

I have noticed 3 elements of originals bands that really click. They are very difficult to duplicate and sometimes, it is all in the luck of the draw.

The first is siblings that start together very young: The Van Halens, Black Crowes, Jacksons, The Kinks, Bee Gees, Osmonds types. There are other, better examples of course.

The second: young neighbors that start very early and develop their skills over time together in an almost telepathic sense: The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Greatful Dead, Credence Clearwater Revival, Aerosmith and other possibly better examples.

Older musicians that are well versed with experience fall into this 3rd category, which does not include super-groups because those situations already have publicized reputations of better than average sucess: the only immediate example I can think of is: The Police.

The third category, which many of us fall into is probably the least likely.

But keep doing it anyway because it's music and the art goes on.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by EddiePlaysBass

... but I am confident that you'll never find a guitarist willing to completely do "your" thing and you'll always be moderately disappointed with the outcome.

I'd elaborate on this a little if I may: many, if not most, guitarists play guitar precisely because it's good for songwriting, and singing along with. So, many of them will be into 'their own thing' and may be less than willing to play your material, especially given the little money original bands generally make.
You might want to try a slightly different angle: try and get with a guitarist with similar musical tastes that wants to write with someone, such as yourself.
Drummers, in my experience, write too but are more likely to be happy to just play, and arrange their own parts.

[llatikcuf]

I doubt that "more detailed charts" is the answer. Try involving the guy in the creative process more. Maybe have a couple of writing sessions on the side with just the guitarist (though do let the drummer know what's going on so he doesn't suspect he's being dropped). The point is to treat him as a member of a band and not a hired gun brought in to play your songs.
If that doesn't get the guy more engaged then he's probably not the right guy for an originals band.

Originally Posted by EddiePlaysBass

1) Fire the guitarist.
2) Put an ad out for a bass player.
3) You play guitar instead.

I know bass players are harder to come by, and if bass is your main instrument you might enjoy that more, but I am confident that you'll never find a guitarist willing to completely do "your" thing and you'll always be moderately disappointed with the outcome.

Just my 2 cents.

I've thought of this before, and mentioned it to a guitarist friend who I used to be in a band with. He laughed and commented something like "Oh no, that bass player would have the hardest gig in the world!" Not that I'm the greatest bass player, just unique, and I'd be even more picky about a bass player! If all else fails, it is an option, but I know there are plenty of guitarists better than me.

Thanks all for your thoughts. I'm going to call both guys this weekend and be a little more clear that I want to spend more time at rehearsal refining songs and getting them tight, rather than learning them. At the same time I will try and sound out the guitarist on his thoughts on the band overall. He's a good guitarist and a nice guy, but maybe he's just not that into it. If he's happy with things, getting him more involved in the writing may get him more enthused.

Generally there seems to be a lack of guitarists around here, at the moment.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by lemonchili

Besides giving the guys cd's of demos, writing charts and giving them songs that sound similar to what I hear in my head, what else can I do to speed up the song learning process?

Nothing. So often I see these kinds of threads here on TalkBass - with the very same theme(s) - over and over and over: 'How can I motivate the _____?' 'How can I get the band members to take rehearsals seriously?' 'How can I persuade ______ to behave more professionally?' It's all the same problem - just wrapped in different guises.

The problem is that leaders are too quick to hire, and too slow to fire. Good players are hard to find, so when you find one, your instinct is to grab onto him/her - without doing your due diligence: without properly qualifying him/her (there's nothing wrong with working with someone on a trial basis, for example). And if/when there are issues that come up later - which there often are, since you didn't take time to really learn that person's situation before making a commitment - then you're stuck with trying to improvise a solution - to a problem that often doesn't even belong to you!

The bottom line is this: Get the right people for the project, and the project practically manages itself (well not quite, but close). Get the wrong people (or the right people at the wrong time), and it'll be an exhausting uphill struggle. Every. Step. Of. The. Way.

I think your guitarist has already indicated his true priorities, though not in so many words. You just haven't quite gotten to the point where you're prepared to acknowledge that to yourself...

MM

[MysticMichael]

If you have to cut the guitarist loose, make sure you hang onto that drummer! Explain that if you stick together and continue to develop the material, you can create the rhythm section nucleus of a band - thus making it far easier to attract and retain the remaining members you'll need...

MM

[Stumbo]

How about setting up a time line (week by week) with your goals for the band and to play a gig in a specific amount of time?

See how the guitar players responds and then you'll have your answer as to whether he wants to stay in the band or not. If he's not willing to put in the time, let him say so upfront. If he agrees to the time line and keeps dragging along, you'll know what you have to do.

It sounds like he just stringing you along (keeping his chops up) until something better comes along.

Once you get a new guitar player, have him/her agree to the timeline before things get going. YOu really need to know how much time he/she has between rehearsals to devote to the band, otherwise you'll run into the same situation again.

[Rick Brienzo]

Two things I have learned playing in original bands as the principle songwriter are.

1. Never chase the demo
2. Let the other players own the songs

If you like and respect the people you are playing with let them stretch out and find their own parts. It's hard to let someone take your creations and change them after all the hard work you put into them, but it always seems to sound better in the end.

When the guys in the band are pumped about the part they are playing it will sound great. It might not be exactly like the demo but it will be what it is, with it's own sound.

On the other hand, if you don't like and respect the sound someone makes it might be time to look elsewhere.

[vagus]

Guitar players only want to play their own songs/covers they like. Forcing one to play a song your way, even if you wrote it, is like pulling teeth from a grizzly bear.

I see three options, all i think have been stated one way or another already

1. Give up control and let them play the parts with their twist
2. Play the guitar parts yourself and get a bass player ( most of us don't have an ego problem with playing other peoples parts)
3. Settle for uninspired playing by your band.

[phatbass]

Once you can get more frequent rehearsals going, he may respond by getting more serious; OTOH in 3 months he should at least have learnt the structures to the songs on the CD.

[hbarcat]

Set a goal for the band to start playing gigs in 8 weeks (Assuming an original band will typically play a one hour set). You have all the material ready for them to learn as fast as they can learn it and make sure everyone knows their parts in a month. That gives you about another month to get all the songs show ready. Ask them to commit to that timeline and if the guitarist is like this:
then you can move forward and hopefully be playing shows in a few months. If the guitarist is like this:
then you cut him loose and look for another one.


I've been in your situation before and with any halfway decent musicians, you should have no trouble learning a set of new tunes in a month or so and be able to play 3 sets of new material in 3 months. But only if everyone is motivated to work at it. If any of the members aren't enthusiastic, the whole project bogs down and months and months go by with little progress.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by EddiePlaysBass

1) Fire the guitarist.

This assumes he's already been 'hired', as in paid for learning and rehearsing the tunes. Is that so in this case?

IME, cash is the best carrot. At the very least, you need the promise of paying gigs sooner than later. 6 weeks is the longest leash I would personally give any band situation to get to the first gig.

[mkrtu9]

yup, I agree with the get some gigs set up idea. That worked for us. We had 4 weeks to get an original one hour set for our first gig then we had 4 weeks to get more fine tuned for the next gig. Made everyone do their job.

Originally Posted by vagus

3. Settle for uninspired playing by your band.

Not an option as far as I'm concerned!

I agree with some of the comments about knowing you have a gig coming up, I've been in bands before where everybody rises to the challenge when the pressure is on.

Managed to speak to the guitarist briefly tonight, and maybe I spoke too soon. He's been listening to the list of potential cover songs and we discussed some ideas, and he had some feedback/ideas from last weeks rehearsal. I mentioned the idea that we need to get a full 45min set worth of stuff together, soon, and that seemed to give him more direction.

Maybe because we've lost momentum as a band, I've stopped giving the guys a direction for where we're heading... so this week I will do two things - book rehearsal room for the next 3 or 4 weeks in advance, and try and hunt down a gig.

[bassbully]

Here is my view.

Mike is the songwriter in our original band. He never wanted to do the solo acoustic singer/songwriter thing although he is very capable to do it. Mike always wanted a full band that would enjoy his songs and want to support them and play them.
He put together a band before ours who had more players but sounded allot like yours ex. little practice, interest or commitment.
Allot of musicians try originals and find out the music isnt a fit or in some cases have a hidden agenda wanting to enter their own music or run or rule the writer's music. When they find out they are not going to be able to enter their own material, noddle, change songs or run the band they loose interest and quit or produce little. With covers you normally know what you are getting into ...originals not so much.

Mike had over a year in the first band before he broke it up over these issues. He is a very easy going ,understanding humble guy who will allow allot of imput in the music and allows all the players to write their parts and we do.

Today our band ( link below) has 4 players. We all get along well and enjoy performing his songs and seeing them grow.Our drummer was with him from the first band and stuck with him since he felt the music was good and Mike is a great guy who just needed the right players.
I joined as soon as i met him and heard a few of his songs. He clearly had a path and a talent for writing. Our multi -strings player is older and the most experienced who injoys playing with us since we age grounded and he likes the songs and room to improvise and play.

In a nutshell its all about the peple when it comes to orignal music. If folks feel it and like it you have a shot of getting them in. If you allow them to write and perform your songs and have input then its a win. With out that you wont have much and in the case of your guitarist i feel he might be loosing interest or could have already lost it. Mike tells us all the time how he feels blessed to have such a great group of players who enjoys his music and are so committed. When you are with the right people its fun and we are a band we work together. I am the one who feels lucky. Good luck!

[TheVoiceless]

If you have recordings of practice. I would sit down with the guys and listen together and see how they feel they did. Also see what they think of your playing. If they are only playing your music and you are not paying them, give them input. Lay out some goals, recording a disc, playing a big club. Something that will get everyone excited about playing. Before practice do something to lighten the mood, get the guys loose and feeling good. If its simply not knowing/executing a part. Stop and work that out as a group. Some people are better with homework then others.

[bassbully]

One thing to add about practice. With covers its pretty much the question of do we do it like the record or make it our own?
Originals are offen done off the writers scratch tracks, CDs or played for you. The songs can grow in different directions and take allot more time and dedication to get right and sound good IMO.
Although originals take more work, personal and band time I enjoy it much more since its my sound on the music not me playing someone elses.

Even when you think you have it all right it can change. We went to the studio only to re-write one song on my end and tweak a couple here and there...with originals you never know.