question regarding who should buy what

[dustklose]

so my band has decided to get serious now. we used to just play kinda soft w/ the vocals sang, or we'd go to my church to play w/ a full pa. well we(i) think its time that we should get a place more suitable for our needs(my basement for now haha) anyways, we have 2-2x12 cabs(that i bought). and now we want to get out own mixer, and mics and all that jazz. well heres my problem, NOBODY wants to pitch in any money, i'm about to throw out 400 for a small practice pa system, and no one wants to help me pay. how do i tell the guys that i want to be reimburesed right away when we gig for what i spent, or do i just suck it up and "take it for the band"? i'm really getting fed up bc ill end up buying the mics, and i dont even sing! so what should i do, and who should be paying for what?

[Vic Winters]

Those who sing should buy the mics, cables and whatever else they need to sing through. If you already bought PA speakers, they should have no problem paying for the other stuff.

Tell them this: We're a band, we're equal partners, that means we split the bills and the checks ($ from paying gigs). If I provide all the equipment, and pay all the bills, I keep whatever money we make. See how fast they change their tune.

Or take an extra cut from the profits, until it's paid off. If you have 4 members, split it 5 ways and take an extra share for yourself until you've made it all back.

[ric1312]

Heres the thing, if they pitch in or later gigs pay for equipment then they will rightly feel they also own the PA.

Then when a band member leaves or the band breaks up someone will probably want a piece of the PA. If you are the singer better to have the pa for yourself.

Just reimburse with your share of any gig payments.

[Dkerwood]

My band rents my PA from me. I own everything - lights, mixer, mics, speakers, monitors, amps... and every time we play and earn money, I take two cuts - one as a band member, and one for the PA rental. This basically gives me enough money to replace cords when they go bad, and generally keep everything functioning well.

Tell your singers this from me. If you're a singer, you really should consider picking up your own microphone. I mean, when I go out to play guitar somewhere, I still bring my own SM57, stand, cord and preamp to mic my amp into the PA. Some guys will go so far as to say that a singer needs to own a PA. I don't think that's fair. I mean, best case scenario puts everyone through the PA, so it doesn't make sense that the obligation to provide it falls on one person (unless that one person is making a little extra cash).

The nice thing about owning a PA personally? You've always got it when you need it. That means that if you want to jam with ANYONE, you've got a practice PA set up in your basement or whatever. If you have a gig with ANYONE, you've got a PA to amplify what you need.

If nothing else, you've got some WICKED 2x12sto use for your stage monitors down the road... ;-)

[Dkerwood]

Oh, FWIW, if you do decide to have each person pay approximately the same amount, be EXTREMELY CLEAR about what each person owns. And be prepared for the day that your drummer quits the band with three shows next week and takes his power amp with him...

I'm NEVER a fan of "band equipment".

[seanm]

For every gig I have played, the lead singer is responsible for the PA. I provide my own equipment. The guitar players either go through the PA or have a small amp. The drummer is not miced.

These are all small gigs < 200 people and small PAs. The PA is usually a small powered mixer and two speakers.

[Diggler]

Dkerwood nailed it. Shared ownership is asking for trouble. Buy it yourself and take an extra cut. When you guys aren't playing, you can provide sound for other bands if it's good enough, too.

Besides, no one will fire the PA guy from the band.

[IanStephenson]

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

Some guys will go so far as to say that a singer needs to own a PA. I don't think that's fair. I mean, best case scenario puts everyone through the PA, so it doesn't make sense that the obligation to provide it falls on one person

I totally agree with you _IF_ the PA is a "real" PA - 2K+ and a 24 channel desk. Then the band will all go through the PA, and I'd get to leave my big amps at home.

However in most cases thats not what happens - the drummer turns up with his kit and sets up, the guitar/bass haul in their amps, and then the singer turns up and asks why there isn't equipment provided for him?

They're talking about a small vocal PA - 2x200 watts which you can get for about $200 (they've got speakers already). I got a Phonic pod 740 which has 7 channel mixer, multifx and 2x240 with speakers for about £300. It's perfect for running vocals through at small/medium size gigs, but it's no use to the rest of the band (which is the kind of thing they're talking about).

I think it's reasonable to expect a singer to provide a PA of that standard more or les single handed, just as it's reasonable to expect the guitarist to provide his own amp.

You may never need anything bigger, as larger gigs have a house PA, or you can hire - either way you get payed for them so theres money to spend.

If _YOU_ need a PA go and get one, and then you'll have it. If someone else is just bitching that no one can hear him, send him out to buy one or get him to accept he not going ot get heard.

Ian

[Dkerwood]

Originally Posted by seanm

For every gig I have played, the lead singer is responsible for the PA. I provide my own equipment. The guitar players either go through the PA or have a small amp. The drummer is not miced.

These are all small gigs < 200 people and small PAs. The PA is usually a small powered mixer and two speakers.

Ahhh, so the guitar players get to use the SINGER's pa? That sounds fair to me. Maybe at another gig, the singer can plug into the guitarist's amp?

[Dkerwood]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

I totally agree with you _IF_ the PA is a "real" PA - 2K+ and a 24 channel desk. Then the band will all go through the PA, and I'd get to leave my big amps at home.

However in most cases thats not what happens - the drummer turns up with his kit and sets up, the guitar/bass haul in their amps, and then the singer turns up and asks why there isn't equipment provided for him?

They're talking about a small vocal PA - 2x200 watts which you can get for about $200 (they've got speakers already). I got a Phonic pod 740 which has 7 channel mixer, multifx and 2x240 with speakers for about £300. It's perfect for running vocals through at small/medium size gigs, but it's no use to the rest of the band (which is the kind of thing they're talking about).

I think it's reasonable to expect a singer to provide a PA of that standard more or les single handed, just as it's reasonable to expect the guitarist to provide his own amp.

Hmmm. I never really got the idea of a "vocal PA". I mean, the smooth sound distribution, the control of balance, I just don't see any reason NOT to put everything in the PA. Most bands I've seen who only run vocals through the PA are bands whose vocals simply don't get heard.

Don't get me wrong. I don't have a huge PA. Mine is just a hair over 2kW with only a 16 channel desk. But the idea of trying to pit 400W for vocals against a loud drummer, a bassist with a big rig, and a full stack guitarist? Not gonna cut it for me.

The last time I used a "small" PA was the last date on our summer tour. Every other venue we played had a decent house PA, so all we had brought with us was two of our 200W monitors and an amp. For this last gig, we popped them up on poles behind the band and used a 4 channel mini mixer to run vocals and guitar through it. It was rough, and I couldn't hear the way I was accustomed, but we made it through the gig.

IMHO, anything less than a thousand watt PA is going to leave you wanting more. A clean PA requires headroom. You can crank a 100W Marshall tube amp to 10. You can't do that with a vocal PA, not if you still want it to sound good.

[NickyBass]

Ah, I remember this. Do what I did...join a band with no singer. HA. I've been in that situation before, though. I think that the singer should be responsible for the PA. I bought my bass and rig and cables and pedals and cases, etc. So why should vocalists get a free ride. Now, I know some people mentioned that the whole band would go through the PA. Well, if your playing a room where the amps don't cut it, then you should probably consider hiring a sound guy. I don't think that a struggling band can invest in the kind of equipment neccisary to drive a whole band, let alone carry it from gig to gig.

[cassanova]

Just take the hit and keep the P/A, mics, and all that comes with it for yourself. If you leave this band and want to front or join another one down the road, you'll at least always have some sort of p/a that you can use should someone else not.

[Dkerwood]

Originally Posted by NickyBass

Ah, I remember this. Do what I did...join a band with no singer. HA. I've been in that situation before, though. I think that the singer should be responsible for the PA. I bought my bass and rig and cables and pedals and cases, etc. So why should vocalists get a free ride. Now, I know some people mentioned that the whole band would go through the PA. Well, if your playing a room where the amps don't cut it, then you should probably consider hiring a sound guy. I don't think that a struggling band can invest in the kind of equipment neccisary to drive a whole band, let alone carry it from gig to gig.

For me, it's not a matter of amps "not cutting it". My amp has more than enough power to push to the back wall of almost any medium venue. However, when my amp is cranked loud enough to seem "big" to the guy standing in the back of the room, I sure as heck don't want to be standing three feet from it with the amp pointing at my head. It's all about cutting back stage volume, and my amp is the biggest part of my band's stage volume. Now we hear my guitar through our monitors, and the PA does its job - pushing my guitar to the back wall.

Again, it doesn't take much to pick up a PA capable of pushing a full band through it. This guy's already got a pair of 2x12 PA cabs, so he more than likely will be able to do it no problem. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a band use PA for JUST vocals with an acceptable balance. IME, most of these types of bands are just simply TOO LOUD (the "Marshall half stacks have to be set on 10" mentality, which works REALLY well when the venue is 20 feet from stage to back wall... sigh).

FWIW, a soundman, while nice, isn't necessary when you put the whole band through the PA. Yes, it'd be nice to have an ear in front of the stage, but the same goes when you let your amps push the sound - it's nice to have an objective ear helping you to mix. But hundreds of bands run everything through the board and mix from the stage. With good success.

Finally: I'm always careful when it comes to comparing investment dollars with my bandmates. Say I buy a $2000 axe. Does that make me somehow "more dedicated" to the band than the other guy who buys a $300 axe? I don't think so. Is a monster singer/showman somehow worth less if he can't afford to drop a grand on a personal PA that he has little use for outside of the band?

[tlwaps]

I said "The hell with you guys" and am in the process of buying a pa. They said they'll help me with it but I told them no. Here's why: what if your band breaks up and everybody help buy the pa? How are you going to split it? If you buy it, then if/when you and the rest of your band decide not to play together, then you have a pa, mics, cables, stands...etc or whatever it is you bought.

Now I wouldn't reccommend buying a powered mixer as you're stuck with only those X amount of channels. I'd go with the mixer and power amp option, at least with that if you want to expand all you have to do is buy another power amp or mixer if you want more channels. Plus you'll be able to rock the hell out of some house parties if you do those.

[Bassstud1]

I have always had a van. Therefore my PA goes into my van. I think it is only fair for the musicians to pay 10% each off the top of each gig to help pay for the equipment. To cover chords,equipment upgrades, gas, plates etc. When we play a benifit, hardly ever, I take it in the rear end. I'll bet given the chance nobody else in the band would do the work I do for the small amount of money I'm receiving. One new band member complained that I got to keep the equipment. The upkeep & upgrading of the equipment alone is more than I get. He was an ex band member quickly. Good Luck with your dilemna. Remember "Music Buisness", Consider it a buisness.

[cb56]

when I bought my small PA, I rented it to the band I was in for $50 a gig. I hauled it and everybody had to help carry it in. Each person had to set up their own mics etc... I eventually sold it because it was never appreciated by the band that I made the initial investment to get things going. Complaining about renting it, not helping carry in/out, mistreating the equipment etc....So I guess what I'm saying is, if you don't mind the headaches, go ahead and buy it and rent it to them for gigs.

[Kenny Allyn]

This whole idea of putting "everything" through the mains system seems to be a real hit or miss thing to me.

How big of a venue REALLY needs that?

I personally think in too many cases it's overkill ... it becomes a situation of doing it because you can. In far too many instances it makes everything out front sound like a big transistor radio. If a venue warrents that much coming thru the mains, most of the time in my experience the house has a pro sound person and a system that can actually handle it.

In the real world of self contained mixer/amps and 1x15 and a horn mains on a pole it's a joke to think miking every thing up through that is sounding good out front ... atleast at any volume. Acoustic stuff is a different story.

Maybe I'm lost in an old skool past but I would much rather hear a well balanced band with the vocals on top ... rather than crowd it all thru a couple of JBLs.

Lets forget the guitar player and his custom boutique rig, and the drummer with a multi-thousand dollar DW kit for a moment ... you spent how much on your bass rig getting that cool %$#@* head and those great sounding @@#$* cabinets just to get "your" sound ... and your going to run it thru what? a YAMAHA board and some 15s ...

As to ownership ... at one point I owned the whole system (rented it out sometimes too) ... now I own the new 1000 watt YAMAHA mixer ... the guitar player the mains ... and the drummer the monitors. In our band each owns his or her own mics. One interesting point our singer Denise actually came to the band owning her own PA system and mics ... we just decided to upgrade. I've been in too many bands that the singer expected you to even provide them with a mic ...


end of rant.

[SteveC]

You buy the PA gear and take an extra cut from gigs.
Sharing DOES NOT WORK so don't go there.
Anyone who sings should have their own mic, cable, stand, etc.
Evernyone should have their own DI - if necessary.

Good luck. It can be a mine field.

[Dirty Dave]

Originally Posted by Kenny Allyn

I personally think in too many cases it's overkill ... it becomes a situation of doing it because you can. In far too many instances it makes everything out front sound like a big transistor radio. If a venue warrents that much coming thru the mains, most of the time in my experience the house has a pro sound person and a system that can actually handle it.

I'm with you on this one. I used to think EVERYTHING should go through the P.A. no matter what size gig we were playing.....until ofcourse I started gigging on a regular basis.

[Dirty Dave]

Originally Posted by Dkerwood

Ahhh, so the guitar players get to use the SINGER's pa? That sounds fair to me. Maybe at another gig, the singer can plug into the guitarist's amp?

I think I both agree and disagree with the point you are trying to make.

I should preface my positon by stating I have a pretty decent 12 channel PA with dual 15" mains, 18" subs and 12" monitors.

I think I would agree with you if a singer was dedicated enough to his/her craft to at least purchase something to sing through at rehearsals. If they can't be counted on to do at least that, then why should we be expected to purchase our own bass gear? Maybe we should show up at auditions expecting to be provided with a bass and an amp as well.

What really irritates me is when singers rely on their bandmembers for the PA and show no interest in eventually investing in one. Situations like that are the reason I have a PA and to be honest, I wasn't happy about feeling forced into the initial purchase of the mixer and mains for the sake of keeping my previous band together. I bought it anyway.

Fast forward to my current band in which the singer also has his own PA. Sometimes we may use his single 15" mains with my mixer for the smaller gigs but usually it's my stuff that we use. I have no problem hauling my PA to the gigs that require it and I don't charge the band extra for it because at least I know my singer is enough of a stand-up guy to have purchased his own PA. I'm sure we would be using his if it were the better or more practical of the two systems.

A couple months back before I had my subs the singer asked if the band was willing to pitch in for a sub. The guitar player and drummer both reluctantly said yes despite their tough financial situation. I was very impressed by this so I put my singer to the test and told him maybe just me and him should split the cost of the sub since both of us owned the rest of the PA gear. He didn't hesitate to agree so I smiled and told him I'd take care of it and proceeded to purchase two of them myself the next day.