Require samples before audition?

[bburk]

My band has been on the prowl for a keys player for some time now. These guys seem even more elusive that quality bass players.

We've got the usual craisgslist post going. One thing we ask for in the post is that they be able to provide some recorded samples of their work before we meet with them. We're a bunch of guys with full-time jobs and so rehearsal time is at a premium. We don't have time to entertain just anyone who replies to the ad. We've been burned by this before. So, the idea is that a sample will at least prove some level of competency. I figure that if you are at the level we are looking for, you will have recorded something at some point. It doesn't have to be recent or great quality or in the same genre, just something so we can get an idea of where they are coming from. We're not pros by any measure and we're not looking to make a living at this, but we think we've got a good thing going and want to keep the band dynamic solid. Still, we get far more replies from people who don't have any recordings than those that do. I've just been giving them the 'thanks but no thanks' deal, out of hand.

The main reason I'm bringing this up is:
Recently I got an email from someone who says they have plenty of recordings but don't want to provide them to us because 'they aren't copyrighted'. He claims to have 30 years of experience in all sorts of styles. He wants us to take the time to meet him in person and listen to his stuff on a boom box or something. Apparently, he is afraid that we are going to steal his tunes? Meanwhile, a few of our recordings are freely available for the world to listen to on the myspace page we provided with the craigslist ad. I offered that he could just send little 15-30 second clips if he wants... no dice.

Now this isn't the only reason I'm leaning toward giving this guy a 'no thanks' without even hearing him play, but I'm just curious what you all think about the idea of providing a band with some samples of your work as a resume of sorts.

[JehuJava]

I reply only to ads that can provide me a sample of what the band sounds like. Unless of course I get a very good idea of what that person or group is trying to do.

I'd be suspect of that dude not wanting to send even a 60 second clip of him playing. 30 years of experience knows that once your work is recorded it is automatically copyrighted in the simplist form. Not 100% protected, but enough. Sounds weird to me.

Alan

[bburk]

Originally Posted by JehuJava

I reply only to ads that can provide me a sample of what the band sounds like. Unless of course I get a very good idea of what that person or group is trying to do.

I'd be suspect of that dude not wanting to send even a 60 second clip of him playing. 30 years of experience knows that once your work is recorded it is automatically copyrighted in the simplist form. Not 100% protected, but enough. Sounds weird to me.

Alan

Thanks.

Yeah, and like I mentioned, that's not the only suspect thing about this guy. But he is the first person to reply that claims to actually *have* recordings but refuses to send them. It got me wondering if there are other, more desirable candidates out there who are just refusing to reply because the the request for samples...

Out of curiosity, does anyone ever reply to those ads that instruct you to email them for samples instead of just providing them upfront? I've always ended up skipping over those just because I figure it's going to be a hassle and the chances are, I'm not going to be impressed anyway.

[JehuJava]

Originally Posted by bburk

Out of curiosity, does anyone ever reply to those ads that instruct you to email them for samples instead of just providing them upfront? I've always ended up skipping over those just because I figure it's going to be a hassle and the chances are, I'm not going to be impressed anyway.

I usually skip those too. Unless the description of the band is what I'm looking for. I'm all about checking out myspace samples or websites before even contacting. No sense wasting eveyone's time if I already know I'm not into that project.

Alan

[jgroh]

Originally Posted by JehuJava

I usually skip those too. Unless the description of the band is what I'm looking for. I'm all about checking out myspace samples or websites before even contacting. No sense wasting eveyone's time if I already know I'm not into that project.

Alan

+1000

I had the same thing happen to me. A band contacted me about having an audition and I asked if they had any samples I could hear because the guy that called sounded like a used car salesman. He said he wouldnt send it to me because he doesnt want anyone to steal it. So he starts playing it on a boom box over the phone, my cell phone that is...I couldnt hear anything.

Im not 17 anymore and my time is very limited so I am not going to waste it on someone that doesnt want to clip 30 seconds and send it to me. How hard is that these days?

[JehuJava]

It's not that hard.

And if these silly people think they have the secret song recipe that is going to blow up and make them rich...they are sadly mistaken. If this was the case they probably wouldn't be posting on CL.

Not saying these things don't happen ("Wow, I had the winning song and didn't even know it!"), but it's highly unlikely.

My points of reality:

1. Of the millions of bands playing music an extremely small percentage actually make it.

2. Of all possible chord arrangements, keys, etc. there is a finite amount of combinations. Someone's bound to play a version of "your" song eventually.

3. A recorded version of "your" song has some, albeit small, copyright protection.

4. If in fact "your" song is the winner, chances are you have some connection, pull, influence, or history with the industry. Thus posting on CL is most likely unnecessary as you probably have some line on the needed players. Even if it's from a certain scene where you have a pull of like minded musicians, or maybe hired guns.

Not to sound pompous, just well grounded, but my experience is that these types of people are very pretentious, have no real clue, or the music is terrible and need to provide commentary while the music is playing because the song is not strong enough to stand up by itself.

Just my opinion...your experiences may be different.

Alan

[JehuJava]

Just a quick follow up.

My post is in no way meant to say don't go out and have fun playing music or don't even try to be successful. By all means keep doing it. This is what keeps new music and sounds being created.

Keep it going and have fun!!

Alan

[guitfiddle0409]

If his stuff is copyrighted, then what's all his fuss about? Sounds like kind of a jerk. Bad sign.

[realdeal]

The idea of not sending samples because of "copyrights" is ridiculous.
But to add some balance here:

What are you offering? Money? Gigs? Future fame & fortune?

C'mon.

When a project has contracted, solid work, usually finding a replacement player is a done deal, through an existing network, or the Union, etc.
Believe me- I have a WORKING R&B rhythm section, contracted to play every weekend, and it comes with a paycheck...Hey, I've earned it!
I'm on my 3rd Drummer, 2nd Lead Vocalist, and 4th set of Female Back-Ups singers.
When I need a replacement because other players have opportunities or conflicts, it takes about 1 session to get a player in and begin reaching performance level quickly.

In other situations, "forming a band" I'd suggest LISTENING to each other play. Schedule a session with 1/2 hour time slots, forward 2 songs for "candidates" to learn, either recordings or charts, then they will either add the right flavor and feel to whatever you're looking for or not.
Samples, yeah sure, but it isn't going to determine who's a fit, musically or personally.
Do what you want to though!

[hunta]

There's no excuse these days for not having some kind of recorded demo material for yourself to send around. BTW, if that guy has 30 years experience then he certainly should have heard about copyright by now. People are way too spooked thinkin P Diddy is going to yoink their tunes.

[realdeal]

I saw a CL ad once; looking for a bassist- It was for a jazz trio, piano-bass-drums; very casual, playing at a coffee shop on a weeknight for free.
Sounded like fun, I had the day off, and nothing wrong with honing your jazz chops, especially on the Fender bass...

I told him in an E-mail, my current "status", and the fact that I've toured, and have played jazz backing singers, and in ensemblestrios, quartets, etc. with the tone/timbre/style of an upright, along with the impact of the Bass guitar, in styles ranging from RealBook standards, to hard-bop, to Coltrane Modality, to Fusion. Let's Play!
(For free...at a coffeeshop....on a weeknight...
Cool with me.....) I'll know in 2 seconds whether they have chops =/> Me; whether we dig each other..

..."Can you send me some samples, or your MySpace page...?"


By-By. Amateurs!
Wouldn't want to "waste their valuable time"

[Eilif]

I'm going to take an opposite tack. Not everyone has recorded samples of them playing, and probably even fewer have recorded samples of someone playing alone. Admittedly, technology being what it is, keyboardists are probably the most likely to have recordings of themselves, but you really don't know who you may be missing who doesn't have themeseleves recorded. I know a couple of hellacious keyboard players who probably haven't been recorded in the last decade or so.

If I were asked to send in a recording, the only things I have are the album from an old band I was in and some not so great quality recordings of my current band playing live. The album sounds good and all, but it's not really a good indicator of how well I would mesh with a given group of musicians.

Even though rehursal time is at a premium for you, I think it would be much more effective to send potential players a track or two or three to learn, schedule them for a 15-20 minute audition, and stick to a tight audition schedule. You will get alot more insight into thier playing seeing how well prepared they come, and how they mesh with you.

I do agree however, that those who fear their tunes getting "stolen" or are afraid to send you examples of work they say they have, are probably either lying about thier body of recorded work, a bit unstable, or have a far higher opinion of themselves than they ought.

[bburk]

Originally Posted by realdeal

But to add some balance here:

What are you offering? Money? Gigs? Future fame & fortune?

C'mon.

I understand we are not going to attract working pros.


Actually I'm extremely upfront both in the online ad and in my corrospondance in order to avoid just that. I don't want to spend the time dealing with someone who ultimately isn't going to work out because they need to make a living. I want to cast the smallest net required, not the biggest.

The ad goes something like this. Early thrities guys with day jobs, good gear, good attitudes, comfortable rehearsal space, doing jazz(ish) originals and not needing to suppliment our income (i.e. not a working band).

So basically I'm offering a good musical atmosphere and potential gigs as the band finishes spinning up.

Originally Posted by realdeal

In other situations, "forming a band" I'd suggest LISTENING to each other play. Schedule a session with 1/2 hour time slots, forward 2 songs for "candidates" to learn, either recordings or charts, then they will either add the right flavor and feel to whatever you're looking for or not.
Samples, yeah sure, but it isn't going to determine who's a fit, musically or personally.
Do what you want to though!

I agree with the LISTENING bit, and that's more or less what we *do* do. It's just we aren't even bothing to audition those that don't supply samples first. Also, I just want to be clear. It's not so much that we listen to the samples in order to see if the person is a fit musically... we just want them to have done something in the past and be able to demonstrate a certain level of ability, band experience and general professionalism. I don't think we are setting the bar unreasonably high. Ideally, we just want someone else like us and I don't think we are delusional about our own abilities and potential.

You are in a working band, hiring from the union or word of mouth. So, any canidate you get has already gone through an extensive social and professional 'filter'. If we took the time to play email and phone tag, coddle and audition everyone from craigslist that can peck out an email, we wouldn't have any time left over to actually rehearse and work on writing new material (which is the whole point, for us anyway).

[hunta]

Originally Posted by realdeal

I told him in an E-mail, my current "status", and the fact that I've toured, and have played jazz backing singers, in ensembles, etc. with the tone/timbre/style of an upright, along with the impact oft the Bass guitar, in styles ranging from RealBook standards, to hard-bop, to Coltrane Modality, to Fusion. Let's Play!
(For free...at a coffeeshop....on a weeknight...
Cool with me.....) I'll know in 2 seconds whether they have chops =/> Me; whether we dig each other..

..."Can you send me some samples, or your MySpace page...?"

I understand feeling like it's amateurish but in many cases it's not.. I live in DC and I've auditioned so many musicians that have unbelievable stories about their touring experiences or jamming with Wooten or Funkadelic or Bruce Springsteen and you name it. Based on auditioning the "look at my experience" guys vs. "here's my myspace" guys, I'll take the myspace people almost every time. The qualified players are often the beat droppers and the groove busters. The guys I'm jamming with now have their own studio and a lot of stuff together and could easily just expect people to come audition based on their word, but they still sent me samples.

I compare it to my work in IT and the people with tons of certifications and formal training are usually the least competent people I know. They have great resumes, but when you say "Ok, show me what you can do," they fail.

Not everyone has recorded samples of them playing, and probably even fewer have recorded samples of someone playing alone. Admittedly, technology being what it is, keyboardists are probably the most likely to have recordings of themselves, but you really don't know who you may be missing who doesn't have themeseleves recorded. I know a couple of hellacious keyboard players who probably haven't been recorded in the last decade or so.

It's true that not everyone has recorded samples, but there really is no excuse anymore. Anyone with a computer built in the last 5 years and a $100 USB interface can make a recording of themselves playing. Not to be elitist, but if people can't figure that much out then it's probably not worth my time to check them out. I'd offer up an hour training session on how to record before I jammed with them. That's all it takes, no lie.

[jgroh]

Originally Posted by bburk

I understand we are not going to attract working pros.


Actually I'm extremely upfront both in the online ad and in my corrospondance in order to avoid just that. I don't want to spend the time dealing with someone who ultimately isn't going to work out because they need to make a living. I want to cast the smallest net required, not the biggest.

The ad goes something like this. Early thrities guys with day jobs, good gear, good attitudes, comfortable rehearsal space, doing jazz(ish) originals and not needing to suppliment our income (i.e. not a working band).

So basically I'm offering a good musical atmosphere and potential gigs as the band finishes spinning up.



I agree with the LISTENING bit, and that's more or less what we *do* do. It's just we aren't even bothing to audition those that don't supply samples first. Also, I just want to be clear. It's not so much that we listen to the samples in order to see if the person is a fit musically... we just want them to have done something in the past and be able to demonstrate a certain level of ability, band experience and general professionalism. I don't think we are setting the bar unreasonably high. Ideally, we just want someone else like us and I don't think we are delusional about our own abilities and potential.

You are in a working band, hiring from the union or word of mouth. So, any canidate you get has already gone through an extensive social and professional 'filter'. If we took the time to play email and phone tag, coddle and audition everyone from craigslist that can peck out an email, we wouldn't have any time left over to actually rehearse and work on writing new material (which is the whole point, for us anyway).

I have my add worded exactly the same way...30's, full time jobs, family's, hobby, etc etc., and I still get the "we are going to be huge original recording artists even though we are all in our 30's and 40's and are looking on Craigslist for other members. Or, the "Im working a 3rd shift factory job (not that theres anything wrong with that) just dreaming of music taking me away from that and pay my bills shtick.

I would like to add that if a person doesnt have an MP3 but does have the same interests/influences and seems cool, I would still meet them. I just like to weed out what I can by asking for samples.

[tycobb73]

I usually find seeing if we mesh personality wise is more improtant than playing ability. So everyone can't get together to audition, but can't 1 or 2 of you meet prospects for drinks or something?

[jgroh]

Originally Posted by tycobb73

I usually find seeing if we mesh personality wise is more improtant than playing ability. So everyone can't get together to audition, but can't 1 or 2 of you meet prospects for drinks or something?

I agree with this for my personal situation to a certain degree, but I am very much interested in their playing ability as I have worked hard to get mine to a certain level. I would rather have a drummer that I only talk to at practices that is godly on the drums than a best bud that stinks. Sorry, thats just me. And, I dont like to "audition" someone initially, I would rather meet them first to see how it goes and get an idea of direction and goals, so in that respect I agree with you.

[stflbn]

I'd been having a hell of a time here in the Nashville area with bands who need bass players not being upfront and honest regarding what they intend to play, or their abilities. Contacting me knowing what I'm looking to play, wanting to 'wing it' at the try-out rather then plan songs, then when I get there want to play country classics, or wrrRRAAARRRrrr rrrRRAAARRRRRRRrrrr metal. When I've been VERY clear that I'm very much in the middle and looking to play heavy radio rock covers at this point and time.

Wasted my time going to 4 rehearsals before I finally realized that people were going to be that way.

Now I'm just very up front about needing to know specifics of what they intend to play, and preferrably with samples.

But... in the end it seems I'm just going to start my own thing with a guitar player who has very similar interests musically and that I have a very good repore with. I've always felt having the start of a band that jives interest wise is better then filling spots and hoping for kharma works out in your favor.

[tZer]

Hell, when we were looking for a singer, we asked that they not only provide a recording for us to preview, but we also insisted on a picture and explained that, while we don't condone people being judged on their looks, we also can't deny the negative impact having a front person who doesn't look the part can have on a band.

Don't be afraid to ask for what you want. If they don't want to provide it, so be it. If you want to let someone slide and not provide because you have a sense that they'd be OK anyway, go for it. Asking for prospective applicants to provide [X] is your call and in my opinion, perfectly OK.

[optikhog]

If dude really has 30 years' experience, he must know at least one cover tune! Have him send you something he recorded on a cover track, that way it's not his copyright to deal with.