running a band- your philosophies

phat daddy · #1 09-23-2007, 02:20 AM

I'm running a new band. I've ran bands in the past and have been guilty of over-emphasizing near perfection in the music, thus turning off good but questionably committed players. My philosophy has always been to perfect the music (within reason) in rehearsal before you play your first gig-- then it's all up from there.

However, a lot of the players I've worked with have the philosophy that as long as everybody has a loose-leafed knowledge of the songs and can take cues, just book and go for it.

I'd love to hear some philosophies from other bassists, whether you go my way, the other, or somewhere in between so I can figure out my gameplan for my new showband.

Dave Muscato · #2 09-23-2007, 02:38 AM

Depends on the kind of music that you play, I think.

We play a mix of funk and rock. We go off in all directions live and never play the same song the same way twice. "Musical perfection" is not something we strive for (groove and "magic" are).

On the other hand, if you play progressive rock or metal... well, yeah, I can understand that.

I personally would not play in a band where improvisation was not welcome (and I mean song structure, not just solo breaks).

cutthroatmolloy · #3 09-23-2007, 02:48 AM

we practiced, wrote, revised etc for around a year before playing live. i think thats the best way to do things... at least for a band that isnt all about improv.

knowing the songs really well helps to put on a good show, and if you put on a good show you have higher chances of people becoming fans and such.

Skel · #4 09-23-2007, 03:46 AM

I tried the "perfectionism" approach, and it just flat out didn't work for me. I'm not diplomatic enough. It's one thing to be discussing a big name national recording artist act, but for a city cover bar band, I think it's best to just let the guys do their thing and only step in when there are arguments like "that's a D chord, not an Em". I sometimes imagine how I would have tried to control a guy like Keith Moon. I would have fired him in about 10 minutes for trying to play "lead drums", and this is what helped me realize that I don't know everything like I think I do.

My .02

Dave Muscato · #5 09-23-2007, 04:39 AM

Wait, are we talking a cover band or original music?

phat daddy · #6 09-23-2007, 04:43 AM

I understand what you're saying, and I want to clarify that I don't know everything, I just know my songs inside and out and want them all to come off well. I am a very objective, diplomatic person and am very respectful in my pursuit of perfection-- but I can't help but want all the segways, arrangements, feel changes, beginnings and endings and soforth to be dead on out of the gate. That's what the clubs have come to expect from my projects and I don't want to let them down. The Tampa Bay music scene is a very competitive, cut-throat affair and I have to impose a good, if not great, product.

phat daddy · #7 09-23-2007, 04:44 AM

We are talking stricly covers-- it's a money band all the way.

Skel · #8 09-23-2007, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phat daddy

I understand what you're saying, and I want to clarify that I don't know everything, I just know my songs inside and out and want them all to come off well. I am a very objective, diplomatic person and am very respectful in my pursuit of perfection-- but I can't help but want all the segways, arrangements, feel changes, beginnings and endings and soforth to be dead on out of the gate. That's what the clubs have come to expect from my projects and I don't want to let them down. The Tampa Bay music scene is a very competitive, cut-throat affair and I have to impose a good, if not great, product.

If you have the diplomatic skills and the band's tension level is kept at bay, it's obviously superior to do the songs "right", out of the gate and I do understand the competitive aspect. But a band's longevity factor really does depend to some degree on how "controlled" the guys feel. Again, I know what I wan't and I feel like everything I would demand, I could easily out debate anyone else in the band with solid reasoning, music theory, etc. I just wish I could communicate without coming off as a controlling prick, which is how I'm sometimes perceived. If you don't have this problem, then kudos to you, sir - you're band will be.....good.

PunkBasser · #9 09-23-2007, 05:13 AM

I'm in a band, my first, called Replay in Cyprus. We play covers from various modern rock bands*. The lead guitarist is very experienced, has played numerous gigs to crowds well into four figures. The other four members of the band - myself included - are absolute novices. The way that Mark (the LG) ran it, was that we practiced every song in the set (it was up to 17 by our first gig) over and over until everybody knew their cues, the timings were all spot on and everybody knew the song inside/out. It's worked for me and now that I feel confident that I could lead a band, I'd do it the same way. I'd be too wary of potential mistakes to just 'have a rough idea' and go for a gig.

* Arctic Monkeys, The Fratellis, RHCP, Muse, The Hives, The Strokes, Greenday... you know the routine.

IanStephenson · #10 09-23-2007, 07:18 AM

It's got to be pretty close, but I don't think you can get a song "right" without gigging it. Plenty times we've had songs that were "ready', then actually gigged them - at the end of the song we've just looked at each other and gone "whoah! - that was different" (usually in a good way). Songs take on a life of their own when you play them live, and I figure it takes a few gigs for them to settle in. It would take a year of rehersal to develop a song the way we can in a couple of weeks of gigging it.

On the other hand, it sounds like you're aiming for some classy gigs, so obviously you need to push for a bit closer to perfection than a bar band does - but we can get close enough that the audience thinks they're tight, even if we notice the glitches.

However unless you've got a lot of experience in the band, and are aiming for that kind of gig, I'd advise any new band to just get out and play as soon as they're basically competent. Too many bands reherse for a year and then break up because everyone is bored.

Ian

phat daddy · #11 09-23-2007, 07:29 AM

I agree completely that one needs to gig out in a timely fashion. I work with a 2 month time continuum-- get my players, book gigs two months out, rehearse like crazy and GO.
But the rehearsals are long and numerous-- one month's worth to get the material learned, another month to polish. That's how I've always worked to keep my players and myself from starving for too long.

Kenny Allyn · #12 09-23-2007, 08:05 AM

Loose and funky all the way ...

With a previous lineup in this band the drummer was the de-facto musical center, his other band was a jam band, so he wanted this one to be pretty rigid in the arrangements. He left I changed all of that.

We are a bluesy R&B classic rock band with a strong nod to some of the power trios of the late 60s and early 70s (Mountain etc: )

This is how I've described it to the band ... Some bands are like a well tuned Ferrari streaking down a racetrack ... we are more like a rusty 1948 GMC pickup truck going down a bumpy gravel road ... fenders flexing and gravel flying.

... We ususally get down the road together ... with only a few parts falling off.

meev992 · #13 09-23-2007, 08:20 AM

I apply a lot of Buddhism, to the philosophy of running my band:

Keep everything in harmony, find the perfect balance between everyone's wishes.

And just keep things loosey-goosey, and everything works out okay.

jsbachonbass · #14 09-23-2007, 11:01 AM

If you are not booking gigs, are you paying your musicians to learn the songs the way you want them to? If not, there is your problem. Most good musicians are not going to put the effort into learning the songs the way you want them if you unless you have definite paying gigs in the near future. The catch is if you book the gigs without a complete line up, you risk not being ready for the gig. Then you would have to use hired guns, and these guys are notorious for saying they know songs just to get the gig and then faking their way thru.
I am like you, I would want the music to be near perfect before the first gig. But I also came to the conclusion that I would have to pay musicians for rehearsal and/or a retainer fee out of pocket.
You can make it easier for your musicians by doing some of the charting work ahead of time, and making sure you notate any modifications you made to the original ( like endings) ahead of time. If you have a good reputation with bar owners, try to find a bar that has a decent paid house band, even if it is a dive, and use it as paid rehearsal.

jsbachonbass · #15 09-23-2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I personally would not play in a band where improvisation was not welcome (and I mean song structure, not just solo breaks).

dave,
With musicians, there is a not so fine line between what some musicians call improv and what I call lazy and halfass playing. You can't have each member of a band improving their own song form and expecting everbody to follow along. You might as well call it an open jam band.

bimmerfan99 · #16 09-23-2007, 12:21 PM

It really depends on the music you're playing and what type of experience the band members have. My band is a gospel band and we usually play for a choir and at various church gigs. I emphasize a certain strictness when it comes to the foundation of the music. I require all members to learn their music before coming to rehearsal so when we rehearse, we're putting the parts together and polishing. Learn the foundation first, then you can mess around with ad-libbing and whatever else you think fits.

After they know the core of the song, I usually give leeway to the musicians to come up with their own runs and chords that they think fit. I'll speak up when I hear something that I feel clashes or when I want specific runs or chords that I know the choir or audience will expect to hear.

It's a balance because having musicians get up to play who aren't prepared is a recipe for embarrassment, especially when we're backing up a choir or praise team.

Dave Muscato · #17 09-23-2007, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phat daddy

We are talking stricly covers-- it's a money band all the way.

Oh, in that case, you want to get them down perfectly. The difference between a successful cover band and a ****** cover band is that the good ones nail the songs, have cool lights, play the part (whether that means actually dressing the part, or just paying tribute to signature moves, etc)... ****** cover bands just go up there and half-*** it. If you want to make good money, perfection should be the stardard (not the goal - the standard).

Stegre · #18 09-23-2007, 05:58 PM

The way I have run a cover band in the past is as follows

1) I got the gigs, owned the PA did the promo etc
2) I paid the musicians (differently depending on the person)
3) I picked the songlist, but allowed input on both songs and arrangements.
4) I did all the bookeeping, arranging, set-up, tear down etc. they just showed up and played.
5) had a Rolodex of subs that knew the tunes.

Got the best people by getting the best gigs ! Stayed busy for a long time that way.

Stefan
coverbandbook.com

Stegre · #19 09-23-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

Oh, in that case, you want to get them down perfectly. The difference between a successful cover band and a ****** cover band is that the good ones nail the songs, have cool lights, play the part (whether that means actually dressing the part, or just paying tribute to signature moves, etc)... ****** cover bands just go up there and half-*** it. If you want to make good money, perfection should be the stardard (not the goal - the standard).

Sorry, The real difference between a successful cover band and one that is not so successful is their ability to get gigs !

That means, the right kind of demo, the right kind of promo, and the ability to retain clients year after year.

You DO NOT have to be the most polished band, with the coollest lights and clothes.

You DO have to play what people want to hear and dance to. Yes, it is best if the playing level is good and tight, but most people hiring cover bands would rather hear Brick House played by an average band , than a band playing a Rush song nuance for nuance.

It is ALL about making money. If you don't have that down, you will not be successful. The best bands , get the best players by getting the best GIGS.

And having the best players also really means you'll get the best sound too...

Still the gigs and the money have to be there first !

Stefan
coverbandbook.com

MysticMichael · #20 09-23-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phat daddy

I'm running a new band. I've ran bands in the past and have been guilty of over-emphasizing near perfection in the music, thus turning off good but questionably committed players. My philosophy has always been to perfect the music (within reason) in rehearsal before you play your first gig-- then it's all up from there.

I'm pretty close to your way of doing things. I can't stand sloppiness and laziness in practice, rehearsal or performance. My feeling is, if you can't take pride in your work, you really shouldn't be there in the first place.

Makes no difference if it's covers or originals, with everything written out or with heavy improvisation. Even with improvisation, there's an approach that's disciplined and effective, and lots of ways that are not.

A couple of absolute fundamentals - so basic it's amazing one should even feel the need to mention it. But time after time, I read posts from TalkBassers with band members who don't really know how to even play their instruments. In which case, I often find myself wondering, "How the heck did they ever get into that band in the first place?"

The other one you've touched upon tangentially - the "questionably committed" nature of some players. In each case, the solution is the same: proper screening. It's essential to be crystal clear right up front about the a) concept, b) methods and c) goals of the band - so that everyone knows from the very start exactly what they'd be getting into, same as with any job - and so that all potential members have full opportunity to either commit fully, or to back away.

Not so easy to execute, perhaps. But it's gotta be done...

MM