Scumbaggery of local venues

[nortonrider]

Yeah seriously,,,,,,?
The guy got some money to expand his business so it Obviously was through some illegal transaction.
Report him to the Cops

what the hell is wrong with you people????
how about - don't like his business, Don't go there!
Jeesh!

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Since when did ethics have anything to do with business?

Ridiculous question. It is all I can do to stay away from politics here, but let's just leave it at GROW UP.

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Since when did ethics have anything to do with business?

Day one. Ethics is life, you don't get to turn them on and off at your convenience.

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Ridiculous question. It is all I can do to stay away from politics here, but let's just leave it at GROW UP.

Ridiculous response.

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by Big Brother

Day one. Ethics is life, you don't get to turn them on and off at your convenience.

Why be ethical if you have no real competition?

[Richland123]

My suggestion is run away screaming.

Is the owner's name Bilbo Scumbaggins?

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by devilman666

I'm playing a show with Job for a Cowboy and Cephalic Carnage sat and we had tickets to sell for our slot. We draw well and fit with the nationals so for us no big deal but we were asked to sel at least 25-30 and if we can 50. We sold over 30 and still have days left. This ain't show friends it's show business

Sorry but it's not 'business' if you aren't paid. It's 'charity.'

If you choose to provide charity to those who need none it is your choice, but excusing crass and predatory behavior with adages such as "It's business!" sure makes life easy for the morally corrupt.

Turn around and grab your ankles if you like, but don't tell the rest of us that we have to accept that.

[bassmeknik]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Since when did ethics have anything to do with business?

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000

[HolmeBass]

It's shady. The pay-for-play aspect is shady, but at least the bands are agreeing to do that. Booking them each for 8 minutes of playing time is even shadier, because I doubt the "winner" thought that's all they'd get for their hard work selling tickets. If he didn't have experience running shows you could almost chalk it up to ignorance, but in this case it is just scum-baggery.

As far as ethics having no place in business, this is a far cry from Adam Smith's unseen hand, where the assumption if that businesses strive to succeed by building lasting and meaningful relationships with their customers by providing real value for them. I think even today the most successful businesses delight their customers, rather than leaving them feeling taken advantage of. Unfortunately some get-rich-quick schemes do work, and there will always be lazy, unscrupulous people willing to try to take advantage of the witless rather than do the hard work to actually make savvy customers happy.

[MarkMgibson]

I don't get this "all's fair in business attitude". I hear this all the time from people who are honest in other parts of their life, but when it comes to business, they feel that ethics and morals simply don't apply. I object - "business" isn't some moral and ethical shield from f*cking people over and behaving like a complete b*stard.

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I don't get this "all's fair in business attitude". I hear this all the time from people who are honest in other parts of their life, but when it comes to business, they feel that ethics and morals simply don't apply. I object - "business" isn't some moral and ethical shield from f*cking people over and behaving like a complete b*stard.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

My point is that nothing is fair in business. But whatever is accepted by society is what goes unnoticed.

A lot of people don't have the nerve to take an honest look at what business actually is. The core of business is survival of the fittest and the strong preying on the weak. It's no different than the food chain in the animal kingdom.

Business is not a shield for Morals and Ethics. It's the other way 'round. Morals and ethics is the shield (and sometimes weapon) businesses use to compete with one another and keep the wool pulled over the eyes of the public. If you build relationships with your customers and suppliers better than your competition, it will give you a huge leg up on your competition. See to the needs of your customer well enough, they may not only throw their money at you but become logo wearing evangelists for you as well.

Unless, of course, you are big enough to just eat your competition outright and do away with such silliness.

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by Nev375

I think you are misunderstanding me.

My point is that nothing is fair in business. But whatever is accepted by society is what goes unnoticed.

A lot of people don't have the nerve to take an honest look at what business actually is. The core of business is survival of the fittest and the strong preying on the weak. It's no different than the food chain in the animal kingdom....

No it isn't. It's a system for the orderly transfer of goods and services so that we can live better lives. So tired of this Ayn Rand nonsense.

We are not necessarily bound to some slavish concept of animal brutality. It's quite OK to leave it behind in the jungle. Don't be afraid to evolve.

[Dean N]

Umm, I'm thinking Nev is saying that's how it is, not how it should be, or how he'd like it to be. It's a realistic observation. He's nailed it on the head.

What did P.T. Barnum say?

[dalkowski]

Originally Posted by jmac

"unethical" isn't the correct word, but it's definitely sh@&*y.

This.

[Dean N]

Originally Posted by Big Brother

It's a system for the orderly transfer of goods and services so that we can live better lives. So tired of this Ayn Rand nonsense.

I'm not an Ayn Rand guy at all. And I'm not trying to poke fun, but this sure sounds like Francisco's speech!

"Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value."

[DwaynieAD]

Originally Posted by Dean N

What did P.T. Barnum say?

this.

as long as there are idiot bands willing to play right into these guys' hands then these types of scummy venue owners/bookers are going to exist. in some fashion I can't blame them, but being on the end where I'm the one they're trying to screw I choose to hate them.

if someone is willing to buy the $h!t you scoop out of your cat's litter box, you're going to sell it. when people quit buying the cat turds you're going to have to close down business.

the problem is just as much the bands participating as it is the venues and bookers.

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by Dean N

Umm, I'm thinking Nev is saying that's how it is, not how it should be, or how he'd like it to be. It's a realistic observation.

Correct. Thank you.

I'm not an Ayn Rand guy either. Quite the opposite. But we are staring to skate too close to a political discussion.

I suspect my choice of words and metaphor may be too strong and is personally offending those here who are running a business.

Sorry. I think pay for play sucks too. I think the people who run such venues are unethical scumbags who prey on naive desperate musicians. But being a scumbag does not necessarily make a person a bad businessman. Certain business models, particularly those without competition, cater to those with such personalities and ethics so they can be financially successful.

That's just the way it is.

[Steve]

Brewsters?...The Pit????

Do yourself a favor and just say no.

[oniman7]

Originally Posted by Steve

Brewsters?...The Pit????

Do yourself a favor and just say no.

I never said that and it's now the Megaplex I'm not in a band anymore but I do my best to stay away anyways

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by Dean N

I'm not an Ayn Rand guy at all. And I'm not trying to poke fun, but this sure sounds like Francisco's speech!

"Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value."

Actually, that is simply the definition of a representative currency and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, except its obvious propaganda value.

We are not talking about political theory or representative currency though, we are talking about scumbags invading our lives and stealing the profit from our legitimate work. With a side conversation about others who blithely excuse these actions because it is 'business.'

Why that makes sense, I have yet to figure out.

To be logically consistent, apply these 'survival of the fittest' concepts to all of life, why just business? That girl you like? Walk up to her on the street, hit her with a big club and take her home she's yours now! Whatever it takes right? Need some milk? Just walk into the home of a weaker neighbor and have theirs! King of the jungle!

Point is, "It's Business!" "That's show business!" and "Survival of the fittest!" is just excuse making for thug tactics. Business is not separate from life, it is simply a system to efficiently feed and clothe ourselves. Ethics and cooperation are expected everywhere else in society and life, and since business is just one facet of life and not even the most important, our system of ethics applies.

If you want to get down to the core of it, the free enterprise works best when people actually produce goods and services. An economy of people conning everyone else will collapse in a week.

Don't excuse these thugs and parasites and think it is beneficial to business somehow, they don't add anything of value.