Scumbaggery of local venues

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Unethical? Perhaps in the most literal definition of the word.

However most of these schemes have nothing illegal or dishonest about them; the bands know what they're getting into and the promoters generally fulfill the terms of the arrangement.

It would be worse if there were actual cheating, lying, and deception happening. But this type of promotion is a fact of life and many, many bands are overjoyed to have the opportunity to participate in them. Therefore I have no sympathy for those bands-- they are willing participants so it's a little silly to view them as victims.

As long as bands agree to do it, it's going to happen. And if they want to do it, who am I to tell them they shouldn't??

Unethical usually falls into not being in accordance with the moral standards customarily followed in a business or professional relationship; Usually meaning someone who doesn't adhere to the requirements of a contract as agreed or fails in some major way.

A scam is obtaining money by means of deception including fake personalities, fake photos, fake template letters, non-existent addresses and phone numbers, forged documents, lies, etc.

Pay-for-play is a business model.

As long as people of age willingly participate and as long as the owner/venue meets their side of the bargain, no harm, no foul to either party.

Everything else is gossip.

[preside]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Why be ethical if you have no real competition?

Please post your business name so I can stay away seriously what you are describing, ethics only when it suits your business model, is so screwed up it makes me wonder about the state this country has fallen into. One does the right thing because it is the right thing to do. We actually had to take an ethics course in business school back in the late 70's by the mid 80's most of those courses were no longer taught and now the mere mention of ethics on Wall St or in many industries (oil)would get you get you fired faster than you could say thief. I also would never want to buy off of you on the classifieds, essentially you just admitted you think it's ok to rip people off. Man you make me sad to be an American.

[preside]

On a lighter note pay-for-play is kind of bogus. No I don't think it's a scam as long as the band knows whats up and the owner honors whatever agreement is made (get it in writing) but I would never do it.

[Waffles and Scotch]

Originally Posted by oniman7

There was a place locally that had a reputation for treating bands bad, and the owner had a reputation for being a cocaine dealer/addict along with other nasty rumors about the place.

It got shut down, to nobody's surprise, because of some building and health violations. The owner was working out of several skeevy areas for a while and then, out of nowhere, seemingly got a huge sum of money and bought up an entire complex where he now hosts 3 "separate" venues (2 of them are in the same building, but separated) and also seems to have hired a marketing guy (that's just my gut talking).

His practices have always been unsavory, but lately things have been sticking out to me.

There's a showing coming with Asking Alexandria, Suicide Silence (before they canceled due to their lead singer's death) and several other very large metalcore and similar acts. Tickets are something like $25. Obviously, lots of local acts want to be on that bill. So what happened? Bands are given 15 (or maybe it was 25) tickets at a time and told to sell them. If they get the money, they turn it in and receive their next interval of tickets. The first band to sell all 75 gets to play the spot. The other bands, from what I've heard, are out of luck, though I've heard conflicting stories that they do get paid a little bit for their efforts.

Now I see on my Facebook news feed from 3 local bands that they're part of a show at this venue booked by some local "agency". The number of acts looked a little high, so I counted. There are 19 acts on this one bill. The doors open at 3 and the show starts at 4 where I can only imagine the headliner goes on around 10. This math leaves us with 18 bands in 6 hours, which means 20 minutes a band including change over times. Obviously nobody's going to stay for a 7 hour metal show to see a local band and the headliner. Tickets to the event are $12 advance and $15 at the door, and if I know anything about the venue, bands are getting only $2 to $3 of that.

Do these practices seem unethical to anybody else?

I have a Facebook friend trying to get us in the rotation at Brewsters...which is funny because I never asked him to do that, and we don't do pay to play...

[JimmyM]

Got to say that if you're playing music that's considered a hard sell, then hard sell it you must if you want to make any money. Never was a huge fan of pay to play, but if you want these metal joints to stay open, they're not going to do it with walk-in traffic.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by Big Brother

Actually, that is simply the definition of a representative currency and has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, except its obvious propaganda value.

We are not talking about political theory or representative currency though, we are talking about scumbags invading our lives and stealing the profit from our legitimate work. With a side conversation about others who blithely excuse these actions because it is 'business.'

Why that makes sense, I have yet to figure out.

To be logically consistent, apply these 'survival of the fittest' concepts to all of life, why just business? That girl you like? Walk up to her on the street, hit her with a big club and take her home she's yours now! Whatever it takes right? Need some milk? Just walk into the home of a weaker neighbor and have theirs! King of the jungle!

Point is, "It's Business!" "That's show business!" and "Survival of the fittest!" is just excuse making for thug tactics. Business is not separate from life, it is simply a system to efficiently feed and clothe ourselves. Ethics and cooperation are expected everywhere else in society and life, and since business is just one facet of life and not even the most important, our system of ethics applies.

If you want to get down to the core of it, the free enterprise works best when people actually produce goods and services. An economy of people conning everyone else will collapse in a week.

Don't excuse these thugs and parasites and think it is beneficial to business somehow, they don't add anything of value.

Yep. "Survival of the fittest" is just the strong praying on the weak, be that physically or financially. In this case we're talking financially, and just because bands are "willing" to do it, doesn't make it right. Club owners who do this are scum.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by placedesjardins

As for the practices, it's kind of unethical, but it's all voluntary. If you see through the scam, any band would not entertain trying to get a spot.

As for the large text I pointed out, dude probably got the money through a big drug sale. Kind of Captain Obvious. If you think he's skeezy, just give the local police a tip. Let the narcs do their job. They may put him away for trafficking or money laundering, all those venues will close up, for better or worse. Have a nice day.

I suggest you don't do that. You don't want to get involved with big time drug dealers. Last thing you'd want is to "drop dime" on them and have them find out. Could turn out really badly for you. Just don't support his establishment and recommend that others don't either.

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by preside

Please post your business name so I can stay away seriously what you are describing, ethics only when it suits your business model, is so screwed up it makes me wonder about the state this country has fallen into. One does the right thing because it is the right thing to do. We actually had to take an ethics course in business school back in the late 70's by the mid 80's most of those courses were no longer taught and now the mere mention of ethics on Wall St or in many industries (oil)would get you get you fired faster than you could say thief. I also would never want to buy off of you on the classifieds, essentially you just admitted you think it's ok to rip people off. Man you make me sad to be an American.

One. I'm not a businessman.
Two. I never made a statement saying it was ok to rip people off. In fact, what you quoted was not a statement.
Three. I asked a rhetorical question about the motives of businessmen.
Four. Your response about big oil and Wall Street basically agrees with the premise that I was hinting at by posting the question.

Please take a course in reading and critical thinking before you reply to one of my posts again. Especially if you are trying to accuse me of being a rip off artist. That's a slanderous lie.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Nev375

One. I'm not a businessman.
Two. I never made a statement saying it was ok to rip people off. In fact, what you quoted was not a statement.
Three. I asked a rhetorical question about the motives of businessmen.
Four. Your response about big oil and Wall Street basically agrees with the premise that I was hinting at by posting the question.

Please take a course in reading and critical thinking before you reply to one of my posts again. Especially if you are trying to accuse me of being a rip off artist. That's a slanderous lie.

Maybe, but you do OUTRAGE pretty well!

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by bassinplace

I suggest you don't do that. You don't want to get involved with big time drug dealers. Last thing you'd want is to "drop dime" on them and have them find out. Could turn out really badly for you. Just don't support his establishment and recommend that others don't either.

I agree. Besides, you just heard rumours about all this cocaine stuff and are making assumptions based on heresay. The cops won't act on information like that, nor should they.

[fdeck]

In my view, pay-to-play isn't unethical unless the promoter misrepresents it, or does a substandard job of managing the gig. Yet those are the areas where the problems seem to crop up:

1. Promoters assuring players that pay-to-play is "how the business works," or exaggerating their influence, connections, etc.

2. Promoters and venues running disorganized shows, mistreating musicians, playing games with schedules, gear, etc.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the slimeball behavior is part of the schtick, as it prevents having to deal with players who are likely to stand up for themselves.