serious opportunity- what to know legally

[hernameisrio]

Originally Posted by ibateur

Reason being that as soon as you do that, you're agreeing with whatever verbal terms were laid out.

I am...?

I told him via email that I'd send him something and THEN he can write me up whatever he wants and send it. At which point I'll bring it to a lawyer, although I'll certainly post it here first so we can all have one last laugh.

[TigerInATrance]

As has been said here, 20% is way more than ANYONE who is actively selling you on a daily basis should be getting. Back in the 90s when I was doing national commercials, my manager AND my agent weren't getting 20% combined and they were getting me hundreds of jobs a year. Please take Music Attorney up on his offer and have a chat about the situation and how to proceed from a legal standpoint.

[Roy Vogt]

Now that I have thought about this further, here's what bugs me:
All of my career has been built on mutual referrals with other players. Some of them are really big names, some are just starting out. We do this stuff to take care of each other and build our networks. Almost 90% of my work has been by word of mouth and referrals. No one asked for a dime. This is why I have a network of Pro Bassists all over the world that I can plug in to.
Someone charging to connect you with a specific gig (unless they're your real Manager and you have a contract) is sort of like the skeevy "Record Producers" stalking Newbie Singers in Nashville:
"Sweetheart, you're the next Taylor Swift! All we need is for your Daddy to put up 10 Grand for a good demo and I can get you a Record Deal!"
Back in the day we used to call these guys Song Sharks. They would have entire careers bilking gullible aspiring Nashville Stars out of their income. Some very famous Songwriters here have had no career as Singers because they signed deals with these Jokers early on.
I think that's what is bugging me about this.
How this should and for the most part does work:
Studio Owner hears about good opportunity and refers young Bassist. Bassist gets gig. Bassist remembers the referral and hires Studio Owner's Studio for next project and in general talks it up. Studio Owner makes money. Win-win. This is how it's worked for the last few decades. It's shameful if it's come to this.

[hernameisrio]

Roy that sounds shady as hell.

I don't know. I've been sitting in front of Garbageband all day recording myself. And at the least, I feel solid enough about my demo that even if I end up telling this guy to suck it, somebody out there will probably hear it and be like, "Gosh those are some good chops. I bet she looks good in a skirt too" and then unicorn crap will rain from the sky and rainbow skittles will explode from the ground as cute kittens frolic all around us and I'll become a star, or whatever. We'll see how it goes.

[Renaissance]

At first I thought this was a thread from someone who saw something too good to be true and was looking for an unbiased opinion. Everyone here smelled a rat and tried to nicely warn you.

As more questions arose your explanations became more ambiguous. When questioned about your marketing/online presence ..... well duh, that's what I'm working on RIGHT NOW.



IMHO, congratulations are in order! A troll thread that made 7 pages! I don't think it's a record but a solid effort on your part. I'll tell you what, for 25% of your future earnings I'll introduce you to some people I know who are BIG TIME trolls and need a partner with some skills.

[Joe Nerve]

Originally Posted by Renaissance

At first I thought this was a thread from someone who saw something too good to be true and was looking for an unbiased opinion. Everyone here smelled a rat and tried to nicely warn you.

As more questions arose your explanations became more ambiguous. When questioned about your marketing/online presence ..... well duh, that's what I'm working on RIGHT NOW.

Now you're telling a well known and established pro that his business practices are shady.

IMHO, congratulations are in order! A troll thread that made 7 pages! I don't think it's a record but a solid effort on your part. I'll tell you what, for 25% of your future earnings I'll introduce you to some people I know who are BIG TIME trolls and need a partner with some skills.

I agree. Embarrassed to admit I got a little sucked in too, though I like to give members the benefit of the doubt. I admire the persons stick-to-it-iveness though. He/she will no doubt be back with more responses.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Renaissance

At first I thought this was a thread from someone who saw something too good to be true and was looking for an unbiased opinion. Everyone here smelled a rat and tried to nicely warn you.

As more questions arose your explanations became more ambiguous. When questioned about your marketing/online presence ..... well duh, that's what I'm working on RIGHT NOW.

Now you're telling a well known and established pro that his business practices are shady.

IMHO, congratulations are in order! A troll thread that made 7 pages! I don't think it's a record but a solid effort on your part. I'll tell you what, for 25% of your future earnings I'll introduce you to some people I know who are BIG TIME trolls and need a partner with some skills.

She wasn't calling Roy shady. Roy posted a practice he considers shady, and she agreed with him. Before you get all self-righteous, make sure you actually read and understand what you are commenting on!

The woman is very emotionally involved in her dream of "making it." We've all been there, or at least, we all should have been.

I had a "song shark" as Roy describes give me the "kid, I'm going to make you a star" speech. All it would've cost me was ten thousand dollars, and I was all ready to start hitting people up for donations.

I got some good advice from a guy much like Roy, and Music Attorney, and some of the other good people on this thread, and it helped me avoid a situation I was gladly going to LEAP INTO.

Now, I'm old, and pissed off, and jaded, and I doubt it when ANYBODY tells me they are going to make it, because the music business has changed, and it's mostly about people who have huge corporate backing "making it," and not so much about talent as it used to be.

That's been going on a long time, and the reason we play music should be first because we love it, second, to try and make a bit of a living, whether its gigging, selling music, or session work, or some other type of commercial work, and lastly, and I mean LASTLY because we think we can be rich and famous.

This lady seems sincere to me, and I think you are mistaking some of her ironic/defensive/emotionally laden comments for jabs at people, when its more about her learning things about the business and herself, and feeling a bit embarrassed about what she might have been willing to believe.

Nobody owes anybody any apologies here. It's just a discussion forum, and there have been some good posts, and some not as good posts, but we've all had a lovely time, and it's just about time for tea.

Good day.

[Renaissance]

Wow Mellow, I didn't mean to stomp all over the dream.

I can see how I might have misinterpreted the comment and posted inappropriately. Please forgive me. If you'll give me a moment I'll edit the offending remark from my original post. I certainly wouldn't want to be considered self-righteous.

Good day yourself.

[hernameisrio]

Originally Posted by Renaissance

At first I thought this was a thread from someone who saw something too good to be true and was looking for an unbiased opinion. Everyone here smelled a rat and tried to nicely warn you.

As more questions arose your explanations became more ambiguous. When questioned about your marketing/online presence ..... well duh, that's what I'm working on RIGHT NOW.



IMHO, congratulations are in order! A troll thread that made 7 pages! I don't think it's a record but a solid effort on your part. I'll tell you what, for 25% of your future earnings I'll introduce you to some people I know who are BIG TIME trolls and need a partner with some skills.

Um, thanks dude. But I'm not a troll. I'm just somebody who's been plugging along in unknown originals bands thus far and am working towards reaching a little higher, which includes, YOU GUESSED IT- WORKING ON MY ONLINE/MARKETING PRESENCE. Like, sorry I don't already have it together to be able to impress you, but I've been busy gigging, working so I can afford to stay in this godforsaken city, and building my credentials with my "day job" so I can have a set of skills in my back pocket for life (Apple certification). Um, so yeah, sorry it took me so long...what'd I miss?

Also, I kinda think 25% is a little high.

[Renaissance]

Good luck with your audition. I truly mean that.

[hernameisrio]

Thanks! You're still not getting 25% though! :P

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Renaissance

Wow Mellow, I didn't mean to stomp all over the dream.

I can see how I might have misinterpreted the comment and posted inappropriately. Please forgive me. If you'll give me a moment I'll edit the offending remark from my original post. I certainly wouldn't want to be considered self-righteous.

Good day yourself.

I stomped on my own dream. When I was young enough to make it in rock and roll, I lived the rock and roll lifestyle, and partied away some years. Then I made original music that sounded like Classic Rock during the Grunge era, and realized I was already "too little, too late."

Now I'm just happy when I play to a room and they love it, and I know it's because of a great performance, not just because everybody's drunk.

Well, and the fact that I'm still alive doesn't hurt.

No worries, my friend.

[hernameisrio]

And the hat, mellow. The hat.

[Renaissance]

Mellow,
As some of my younger friends would say: It's all good.

Rio,
30%, but that's the best I can do!

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by hernameisrio

Roy that sounds shady as hell.

I don't know. I've been sitting in front of Garbageband all day recording myself. And at the least, I feel solid enough about my demo that even if I end up telling this guy to suck it, somebody out there will probably hear it and be like, "Gosh those are some good chops. I bet she looks good in a skirt too" and then unicorn crap will rain from the sky and rainbow skittles will explode from the ground as cute kittens frolic all around us and I'll become a star, or whatever. We'll see how it goes.

Yep, it was shady as hell!

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by hernameisrio

And the hat, mellow. The hat.

OK, you brought up the hat enough times that you have now brought out THE STORY OF THE HAT.

I hope you're proud.

I thought it would be cool to get a cowboy hat. Mostly so I could put it on when we played "Freebird." I bought this:


It is the Bullhide Thunderstruck Cowboy Hat, currently $69.99 at Shepler's. They didn't have my size, so I got one size smaller. The little pewter plaque on the front says, "Heavy Metal Thunder," and has a picture of a Harley-ish bike. I had to buy a hat stretcher to wear it, and even then, it leaves a little indent in my forehead.

So it worked, but it just wasn't quite right.

My father immigrated to America from Scotland my birth year, 1963. He said bringing me to this country to be born was the biggest favor anyone would ever do me, and I quite agree. When I asked him why he left school at age 14 to become an electrician's apprentice, he said, "so I didn't have to go down the mines." (imagine that answer with a thick Scottish accent, please)

Last May, he had an operation for a cancerous tumor on his arm. He had what looked like a large-ish tennis ball, or smallish baseball growing out of it. He'd had it irradiated, so it kind of glowed red. He was about 83 at the time. He lives in Florida.

Well, he had the tumor removed, and he'd been bragging to me about how his doctor was the best in the freakin' universe, and how this was a simple procedure, and it would be nothing, etc, and then I get a message on my cell phone from my sister's husband.

"Richard," says the super serious voice, "they don't know if your dad is going to make it. They told Pam (my sister) that if she ever wanted to see your father alive again, she better get right down there." (Pam lives in Minnesota, where I'm from.)

So I'm all, "what are they, kidnappers? If we ever want to see him alive again? Seriously? Who says that?"

And it made me more than a little sad. I got married, and we bought a house that, in my opinion, is waaaaay too expensive, and I'm a typical rock and roll idiot, and don't get paid enough, and screwed up my credit, and had checks garnished, and had no savings of any kind, or credit. And I had to get from Fort Wayne, Indiana down to Florida, because I am NOT going to go down later for a funeral. I am going to see my dad, right?

So I cry about the situation to a bunch of people at work, and even though I'm a grouchy ass, who nobody likes, according to most drummers who left our band, and some club owners, and some people in other bands, and any given number of people my wife knows, apparently, people who work with me 40 or more hours a week really like me, because they all take up a collection, and lend me the money to have enough gas to drive to Florida and back, with maybe a few extra bucks so I can, I don't know, EAT ONCE IN AWHILE, etc.

Now my sister is a good woman, who I love dearly, but she can be panicky, and loves a good worst case scenario, and I get down there, and she takes me aside, and starts talking about "quality of life," and "hard decisions," and telling me "he doesn't look good," etc.

I go and see him, and he's in the bed with tubes in his mouth and nose, and a clear plastic tube leading into something in the wall that lets us see what he's eaten or drank lately, (eeeewww,) and something broke one of his teeth or his dentures are out or something, so he has one tooth kind of sticking out of his mouth, and he's breathing like Darth Vader, and he's a little grey, but overall, I like the look of him.

And when I say "like the look of him," I simply mean, he DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A MAN ABOUT TO DIE. You get to an age in life when you know what people look like when they are going to die, and what they look like when they are NOT going to die, and I have reached that age, due to years on the planet, dead friends and family members, or something. He tears up a little when he sees me, because I'm his destitute, idiot son, and he knows I must have really done something to get down to Florida, because most days I'm lucky when I have enough money to pay attention.

He cracks a joke or two, and I KNOW he's going to make it, and then my sister and I go out to the patio, and she tells me my mother is in the hospital back in Minneapolis, (she's 85,) and Pam is ready for a nervous breakdown. She's wired, she's on edge, she's sick of all this, and she's a bit jumpy to begin with, and she is DRIVING ME CRAZY.

I come to find out my dad had a heart "incident" when they did the surgery, and one of his lungs partially collapsed, and he developed pneumonia. Now, when you're 83, and have been getting radiation for cancer, and have all this happen, and you're cracking jokes, YOU'RE DOING REALLY, REALLY WELL.

Now, I realize this story is getting long, but my sister and I go stay with my dad's wife for one of the nights we're there, and before we leave, I go into the garage, and start loading some of his tools into my trunk.

Now, I'm not some vampire who waits for his 83 year old dad to get cancer, so he can start loading up on tools. My dad had told me, in the hospital, specifically to take some tools, because he taught me to do a lot of projects when I was a teenager, and he had been wanting to send them to me, but being Scottish, he was too cheap to put them in the post. (that's a bit of a joke-that Scottish "cheap" stereotype, although it's totally true in his case)

So I'm loading these tools, and my sister is trying to get my dad's wife to stop me, because she's having a flashback from when her husband's dad died, and she can't take it, and I swear to God, she's about to deliver a litter of six kittens, right there in the driveway, but I stick to my guns, and I tell her, "look, when we get to the hospital, you can tell dad what tools I took, and if there are any he didn't want me to take, we will load them back into your rental car, and you can take them right back," and she agrees, gasping like a fish on a dock, on a July day in Atlanta.

I follow her and my dad's wife back to the hospital, and I am just TENSE. I mean TENSE. I just can't overcapitalize enough to get my meaning across. And then I see this Western store. Now, there are NO good Western stores in Indiana, so I really want to stop. I am aware I am really, really broke, but I figure I'll have a look around. Maybe they have a catalog. Maybe I can order something online from them later.

I am thinking about that leather cowboy hat, and how inadequate it is, and how I want a REAL cowboy hat, maybe a felt one, like Garth Brooks or someone would wear. I have never been attracted to straw hats, but I walk over and look at this one tan one, because, well, it just looks cool. I see the price, and it's under thirty bucks, and I start calculating how much money I have left; how much I spent on gas to get down here, and I start thinking, "well, if I don't eat much in the next few days, I think I can just make it."

When am I going to get another chance to go into a cool Western store like this one? I stay the hell out of Texas; I'm stuck on this farm in Indiana, because we have too many animals, and, as I mention, we're POOR, and I can't think of any neighboring state that has cool Western shops.

It's pouring rain outside. The guy at the register has this awesome, authentic Southern/Western/Country/Cowboy accent, and he asks me if I found everything I was looking for.

I said I sure did, and he rang me up, and I paid him in cash. He asked me if I wanted a receipt, and a bag, and I said, "you know what hats are for, don't you?"

He got a big grin on his face, and said, "I shore do. They're fer wearin'."

I told him he was correct, and placed the hat on my head, and off I went into the rain.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Now that I have thought about this further, here's what bugs me:
All of my career has been built on mutual referrals with other players. Some of them are really big names, some are just starting out. We do this stuff to take care of each other and build our networks. Almost 90% of my work has been by word of mouth and referrals. No one asked for a dime. This is why I have a network of Pro Bassists all over the world that I can plug in to.
Someone charging to connect you with a specific gig (unless they're your real Manager and you have a contract) is sort of like the skeevy "Record Producers" stalking Newbie Singers in Nashville:
"Sweetheart, you're the next Taylor Swift! All we need is for your Daddy to put up 10 Grand for a good demo and I can get you a Record Deal!"
Back in the day we used to call these guys Song Sharks. They would have entire careers bilking gullible aspiring Nashville Stars out of their income. Some very famous Songwriters here have had no career as Singers because they signed deals with these Jokers early on.
I think that's what is bugging me about this.
How this should and for the most part does work:
Studio Owner hears about good opportunity and refers young Bassist. Bassist gets gig. Bassist remembers the referral and hires Studio Owner's Studio for next project and in general talks it up. Studio Owner makes money. Win-win. This is how it's worked for the last few decades. It's shameful if it's come to this.

I agree, it's shameful that it's come to this. It's the thing that's bothered me as well. In a business that surivives on referrals, the notion of taking advantage of someone for one just seems wrong to me. On the flipside, I also think it's lame to not return the favor if someone helps you out.

Seriously, is it that bad out there that this is what we've come to? Really?!?!

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by mellowinman

OK, you brought up the hat enough times that you have now brought out THE STORY OF THE HAT.

I hope you're proud.

I thought it would be cool to get a cowboy hat. Mostly so I could put it on when we played "Freebird." I bought this:


It is the Bullhide Thunderstruck Cowboy Hat, currently $69.99 at Shepler's. They didn't have my size, so I got one size smaller. The little pewter plaque on the front says, "Heavy Metal Thunder," and has a picture of a Harley-ish bike. I had to buy a hat stretcher to wear it, and even then, it leaves a little indent in my forehead.

So it worked, but it just wasn't quite right.

My father immigrated to America from Scotland my birth year, 1963. He said bringing me to this country to be born was the biggest favor anyone would ever do me, and I quite agree. When I asked him why he left school at age 14 to become an electrician's apprentice, he said, "so I didn't have to go down the mines." (imagine that answer with a thick Scottish accent, please)

Last May, he had an operation for a cancerous tumor on his arm. He had what looked like a large-ish tennis ball, or smallish baseball growing out of it. He'd had it irradiated, so it kind of glowed red. He was about 83 at the time. He lives in Florida.

Well, he had the tumor removed, and he'd been bragging to me about how his doctor was the best in the freakin' universe, and how this was a simple procedure, and it would be nothing, etc, and then I get a message on my cell phone from my sister's husband.

"Richard," says the super serious voice, "they don't know if your dad is going to make it. They told Pam (my sister) that if she ever wanted to see your father alive again, she better get right down there." (Pam lives in Minnesota, where I'm from.)

So I'm all, "what are they, kidnappers? If we ever want to see him alive again? Seriously? Who says that?"

And it made me more than a little sad. I got married, and we bought a house that, in my opinion, is waaaaay too expensive, and I'm a typical rock and roll idiot, and don't get paid enough, and screwed up my credit, and had checks garnished, and had no savings of any kind, or credit. And I had to get from Fort Wayne, Indiana down to Florida, because I am NOT going to go down later for a funeral. I am going to see my dad, right?

So I cry about the situation to a bunch of people at work, and even though I'm a grouchy ass, who nobody likes, according to most drummers who left our band, and some club owners, and some people in other bands, and any given number of people my wife knows, apparently, people who work with me 40 or more hours a week really like me, because they all take up a collection, and lend me the money to have enough gas to drive to Florida and back, with maybe a few extra bucks so I can, I don't know, EAT ONCE IN AWHILE, etc.

Now my sister is a good woman, who I love dearly, but she can be panicky, and loves a good worst case scenario, and I get down there, and she takes me aside, and starts talking about "quality of life," and "hard decisions," and telling me "he doesn't look good," etc.

I go and see him, and he's in the bed with tubes in his mouth and nose, and a clear plastic tube leading into something in the wall that lets us see what he's eaten or drank lately, (eeeewww,) and something broke one of his teeth or his dentures are out or something, so he has one tooth kind of sticking out of his mouth, and he's breathing like Darth Vader, and he's a little grey, but overall, I like the look of him.

And when I say "like the look of him," I simply mean, he DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A MAN ABOUT TO DIE. You get to an age in life when you know what people look like when they are going to die, and what they look like when they are NOT going to die, and I have reached that age, due to years on the planet, dead friends and family members, or something. He tears up a little when he sees me, because I'm his destitute, idiot son, and he knows I must have really done something to get down to Florida, because most days I'm lucky when I have enough money to pay attention.

He cracks a joke or two, and I KNOW he's going to make it, and then my sister and I go out to the patio, and she tells me my mother is in the hospital back in Minneapolis, (she's 85,) and Pam is ready for a nervous breakdown. She's wired, she's on edge, she's sick of all this, and she's a bit jumpy to begin with, and she is DRIVING ME CRAZY.

I come to find out my dad had a heart "incident" when they did the surgery, and one of his lungs partially collapsed, and he developed pneumonia. Now, when you're 83, and have been getting radiation for cancer, and have all this happen, and you're cracking jokes, YOU'RE DOING REALLY, REALLY WELL.

Now, I realize this story is getting long, but my sister and I go stay with my dad's wife for one of the nights we're there, and before we leave, I go into the garage, and start loading some of his tools into my trunk.

Now, I'm not some vampire who waits for his 83 year old dad to get cancer, so he can start loading up on tools. My dad had told me, in the hospital, specifically to take some tools, because he taught me to do a lot of projects when I was a teenager, and he had been wanting to send them to me, but being Scottish, he was too cheap to put them in the post. (that's a bit of a joke-that Scottish "cheap" stereotype, although it's totally true in his case)

So I'm loading these tools, and my sister is trying to get my dad's wife to stop me, because she's having a flashback from when her husband's dad died, and she can't take it, and I swear to God, she's about to deliver a litter of six kittens, right there in the driveway, but I stick to my guns, and I tell her, "look, when we get to the hospital, you can tell dad what tools I took, and if there are any he didn't want me to take, we will load them back into your rental car, and you can take them right back," and she agrees, gasping like a fish on a dock, on a July day in Atlanta.

I follow her and my dad's wife back to the hospital, and I am just TENSE. I mean TENSE. I just can't overcapitalize enough to get my meaning across. And then I see this Western store. Now, there are NO good Western stores in Indiana, so I really want to stop. I am aware I am really, really broke, but I figure I'll have a look around. Maybe they have a catalog. Maybe I can order something online from them later.

I am thinking about that leather cowboy hat, and how inadequate it is, and how I want a REAL cowboy hat, maybe a felt one, like Garth Brooks or someone would wear. I have never been attracted to straw hats, but I walk over and look at this one tan one, because, well, it just looks cool. I see the price, and it's under thirty bucks, and I start calculating how much money I have left; how much I spent on gas to get down here, and I start thinking, "well, if I don't eat much in the next few days, I think I can just make it."

When am I going to get another chance to go into a cool Western store like this one? I stay the hell out of Texas; I'm stuck on this farm in Indiana, because we have too many animals, and, as I mention, we're POOR, and I can't think of any neighboring state that has cool Western shops.

It's pouring rain outside. The guy at the register has this awesome, authentic Southern/Western/Country/Cowboy accent, and he asks me if I found everything I was looking for.

I said I sure did, and he rang me up, and I paid him in cash. He asked me if I wanted a receipt, and a bag, and I said, "you know what hats are for, don't you?"

He got a big grin on his face, and said, "I shore do. They're fer wearin'."

I told him he was correct, and placed the hat on my head, and off I went into the rain.

The longest and best "be careful what you wish for" dissertation ever.

[Rockford]

Originally Posted by jive1

I agree, it's shameful that it's come to this. It's the thing that's bothered me as well. In a business that surivives on referrals, the notion of taking advantage of someone for one just seems wrong to me. On the flipside, I also think it's lame to not return the favor if someone helps you out.

Seriously, is it that bad out there that this is what we've come to? Really?!?!

I don't believe there's a real gig here. Just sounds like another small time scam that preys on dreams of success. Unfortunately all too commonplace in music and entertainment.

[hernameisrio]

Well, if that's the case, seeing as how I know this guy (20%) and have worked with him before, then I guess he's just an @$$4guessthewordlolz. Because it's bad enough for a stranger to scam me, but for someone I know to do it...? Uh, yeah.

Not only that but I was also told that the demo I already sent to him, is not that good.

So, :headdesk: all around...yep. :nod: