Sigh. Drummer trouble.

[txbasschik]

We may have to fire our drummer.

The recording we did last fall is unusable. His tracks are bad. Really bad. He's not keeping the groove. He is, like, tapping out the melody. Even on the kick! Our guitarist, who writes the originals and who put up the money to record, is *not* happy, and I don't blame him one bit.

We have our "magic moments" where we totally click, but they are few and far between. And becoming fewer and farther. He's ok on covers, but on originals...man, I don't know what he's trying to do there. He won't give me that good, strong kick, and his snare is too "tap tap tap" and no consistency. I'm willing to try to work with him some more, but the guitarist is getting tired of this, and is upset over losing so much money on the recording with not much hope of being able to get a new, good one.

Drummer is holding us back. We've both tried to get him to work on his weaknesses, but he isn't making progress. Sticking to the beat, waiting to add fills until the groove is solid, he perceives as "dumbing down" the part.

He's a good man. I like him very much. He's also rather delicate, emotionally, and I strongly suspect that he's depressed. He's also given me some verbal clues that he's got/developing a drinking problem. Things like, "I'll try and make it to the jam if I'm not already too drunk." This conversation was held at about 10:30 a.m., by phone. He also seems to be more emotionally attached to me than he should be.

I am *worried* about the guy, but we can't record with him, and we can't use a sub to record without hurting his feelings. We have several other interested drummers.

Man, I hate this. I really think we will have to get someone else, but I'm afraid of what it will do to our current guy.

No worries about him reading this. He doesn't use the web. So...your thoughts?

Cherie

[2x4strgkramers]

Do what you gotta do. this is a bussiness when recording a record and if you can't get the level of performance from a paided professional then it is time to get a new one.

[ohskigod]

think of it this way, stringing him along down a path you know is just going to lead to more frustration and failure is actually being cruel to him. cut it now, it will be painful for him, but better take the pain now then let it add up with interest.

feel your pain though, I've fired people before (not from a band though) it does suck @ss.

[BigOldHarry]

drummers are almost always a PITA. I've played with maybe 2 drummers who I liked recording with... The rest? They either become complete spazes in the studio or suddenly loose ALL feel and go way conservative. It's odd.

I wonder what Drummers say about bassists on THEIR forums...

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by 2x4strgkramers

Do what you gotta do. this is a bussiness when recording a record and if you can't get the level of performance from a paided professional then it is time to get a new one.

Sad but true.

Guitarist had to get off the phone with me while we were discussing this thing. He had a business call. He'll call me again tonight.

I'll have to wait and talk to Guitarist first, but...

I'm dying to pick up the phone, call Drummer, and just *tell* him...improve your groove *now*, man. See if I can get him to listen to me.

We're getting gigs with more venues now, and want to expand on that to where we are playing at least three to six shows per month. We *need* a cd! Just a decent demo! The only promotional tool I have to work with is some dvd footage of bar gigs.

It has been suggested to me that Guitar and I record our tracks at his home studio, to a click, then have Drummer add his parts. If that doesn't work, then we will definitely have to dump him.

Cherie

[dmusic148]

I forget who said it, maybe it was Chet Atkins: "It takes an awfully good drummer to be better than NO drummer."

Fire him. Move on.

[scottbass]

Yes, indeed. If there's money involved - paid gigs, recording time - you have to do what's best for your sound. The sooner you (as a band) fix the problem, the happier you (as a band) will all be. Forget the personal issues, emotional attachment, fragile emotions, depression, substance abuse, etc. Your decision is purely business. Now, all of his personal issues may be contributing negatively to his performance, but why waste your time (as a band) dealing with causes and effects? All you (as a band) need to deal with is your sound. And you (as a band) have decided your sound needs improving.

Notice how many times I said "(as a band)"? That's because you must ALWAYS make it clear when hiring or firing people that it is a united decision and not just one person's feelings influencing the rest of the band.

Make it clean, make it quick, make it professional. Then move ahead.

Good luck - it's never easy but often necessary.

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

drummers are almost always a PITA. I've played with maybe 2 drummers who I liked recording with... The rest? They either become complete spazes in the studio or suddenly loose ALL feel and go way conservative. It's odd.

I wonder what Drummers say about bassists on THEIR forums...

He did say that he wasn't comfortable in the studio, and didn't like the engineer...who picked the guy to PIECES. This was his first recording experience, and I think his expectations were not in line with reality. I tried to prepare him, but...you just have experience it, I guess. I don't like recording, either. It is nearly always a rollercoaster between totally nervewracking and utterly boring. So I turn off my inner voices and just concentrate on the part I'm playing.

He did, indeed, totally spazz out in the studio. He's better, live. Except on originals.

I just hate this. I really do like the guy.

Cherie

[frozilla]

In my last band, a good friend of mine wanted to sing for us so I got the guys to let him in. He's a great friend, but he wasn't doing any singing. I ended up having to kick him out. I know its hard but you gotta do it.

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by scottbass

Yes, indeed. If there's money involved - paid gigs, recording time - you have to do what's best for your sound. The sooner you (as a band) fix the problem, the happier you (as a band) will all be. Forget the personal issues, emotional attachment, fragile emotions, depression, substance abuse, etc. Your decision is purely business. Now, all of his personal issues may be contributing negatively to his performance, but why waste your time (as a band) dealing with causes and effects? All you (as a band) need to deal with is your sound. And you (as a band) have decided your sound needs improving.

Notice how many times I said "(as a band)"? That's because you must ALWAYS make it clear when hiring or firing people that it is a united decision and not just one person's feelings influencing the rest of the band.

Make it clean, make it quick, make it professional. Then move ahead.

Good luck - it's never easy but often necessary.

You are right, of course. That's why I haven't called him. I don't want to do anything until I can talk more with Guitar, make certain we are on the same page, and are united in if/how/when to do this.

But it still feels like shooting a horse. Dangit.

Cherie

[lowendgenerator]

I want to hear these recordings. The way you described his playing made me curious...How bad is he?

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by scottbass

Yes, indeed. If there's money involved - paid gigs, recording time - you have to do what's best for your sound. The sooner you (as a band) fix the problem, the happier you (as a band) will all be. Forget the personal issues, emotional attachment, fragile emotions, depression, substance abuse, etc. Your decision is purely business. Now, all of his personal issues may be contributing negatively to his performance, but why waste your time (as a band) dealing with causes and effects? All you (as a band) need to deal with is your sound. And you (as a band) have decided your sound needs improving.

Notice how many times I said "(as a band)"? That's because you must ALWAYS make it clear when hiring or firing people that it is a united decision and not just one person's feelings influencing the rest of the band.

Make it clean, make it quick, make it professional. Then move ahead.

Good luck - it's never easy but often necessary.

Yeah, we danged sure can't fix his emotional problems. They are deep, long-standing, have to do with the death of his spouse, and would require professional help. I don't know that they are affecting his performance, but they are definitely affecting how we treat him.

And that's a trap.

My neighbor's band hasn't had but six gigs in three years. Why? Because their 2nd guitarist holds them back. He won't play the genre in a suitable style. He overplays. Neither the cover tunes he chooses, nor the originals he writes, suit the band. He is never prepared at gigs, and takes too much time between songs, tuning and adjusting his amp and setting music on a stand. Three years...still uses a stand. He makes their whole band sound bad. When he doesn't come to practice, they sound great.

But she won't fire him because he is her long-time friend.

I *don't* want to be that girl!!!

Cherie

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by lowendgenerator

I want to hear these recordings. The way you described his playing made me curious...How bad is he?

He's way worse in the studio than he is live. Live, not so bad. Room for improvement, yes, but not terrible. If he were terrible, we wouldn't have the strong local following that we do.

But in the studio...es muy malo. Its like a different guy altogether.

I'll get Guitar to give me the recordings, if I can. I've heard them, but he's got them at his house.

Cherie

[kennydakid]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

I wonder what Drummers say about bassists on THEIR forums...

Go to http://www.pearldrummersforum.com
my handle on that forum is the same as here.

I am a drummer and understand the difficulties of working in the studio. It is like anything else, you get better as you practice.

If you want to hear my "studio work" you can hear how practice makes you better....

Listen to "Crosseyed Situation" and "Drinking Song"
http://www.myspace.com/drivetheoryband

Crosseyed, Halfway There and Free were songs recorded in 2007. My first time ever in a studio
Drinking Song and Don't you say are from 2008. I had been in a studio many more times by this point. I spent half as long putting the parts down. (the second recording session was done entirely live to 2 tracks so quality might not be as good)

[kraigo]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

I wonder what Drummers say about bassists on THEIR forums...

The only one I was ever subscribed to (newsgroup), they were way too busy flaming each other to really get to anyone else. I'm primarily a drummer, but the discussions on drum forums really bore me to tears. Factor in the signal to noise ratio and "Welcome to Talk Bass".

As far as recording, it's tough. I've done a lot of it in my basement. The best thing I've learned is to get the best isolation in the headphones that you can (keep the acoustic drums out to a very large degree), absolutely crank the click and mix in a small amount of the guide track. It's very easy for an out of time part to drag the drummer off beat for a moment. Minimal guide tracks are better. The drummer is going to be held accountable to the click, so that's what he should be hearing most of in his phones. He should never have to struggle even a little to hear the click.

Other things that help are to have a drum machine doing a shaker on eighths and a cowbell on quarters to try to make the click a little less clinical. He can imagine that it's his friend Brian playing percussion with him or something.

If I were trying to record with a band as well as a click, I'd suggest that I, again, get almost no band (a bit of guitar and vocal) in the headphones and almost all click. The rest of the band would get pretty much no click, but whatever else they wanted.

Making it rock and still tight with a click on the drumset is a real challenge. Don't tell me otherwise unless you've done it. The best thing a drummer can do is get a recording system (it doesn't have to be very sophisticated) and practice doing it.

KO

[bass12]

An old band of mine had the same problem. Well, almost the same problem - the drummer was very talented, but he just didn't fit the vibe of the music stylistically. He also had a problem with alcohol. In the end, we had to give him an ultimatum: start practicing the kind of music that the band was playing, or leave. As predicted, he decided to leave. It was difficult, because the guy was a friend and we knew he was an alcoholic (there was some fear about what he might do to himself if we fired him). But we weren't just a gang of friends - we were a band. If you are gigging for money, then your band is a business venture. Not only that, but it sounds as if the whole band is going to be unhappy if something doesn't change. Your drummer is going to get the message sooner or later that he's not wanted, so you might as well go about things in a civilized way. Be straight-up. And tell him that the alcohol is a factor (if, indeed, it is). Alcoholics need to know that their problems with alcohol are messing things up and ruining opportunities. It sounds as if this guy needs a therapist more than he needs a band. Being his therapist is not your job. As they say, sometimes people need to hit rock-bottom before they can make the necessary changes to their lifestyles.

Good luck, I know the situation you're in is a difficult one.

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by kennydakid

Go to http://www.pearldrummersforum.com
my handle on that forum is the same as here.

I am a drummer and understand the difficulties of working in the studio. It is like anything else, you get better as you practice.

If you want to hear my "studio work" you can hear how practice makes you better....

Listen to "Crosseyed Situation" and "Drinking Song"
http://www.myspace.com/drivetheoryband

Crosseyed, Halfway There and Free were songs recorded in 2007. My first time ever in a studio
Drinking Song and Don't you say are from 2008. I had been in a studio many more times by this point. I spent half as long putting the parts down. (the second recording session was done entirely live to 2 tracks so quality might not be as good)

Thanks!

I think the studio is his biggest problem. Hejust, I dunno, cheesed up, bad. I would hate him to get fired over that, since he's not so bad live, and the "hang" is good between all of us.

Maybe we should just get somone else for the studio, and keep him for live shows, if everyone could agree to that? He dislikes the studio so much that he just might agree.

Guitarist wants to fire him outright. I want to try alternatives, if possible.

Cherie

[Mr_Sore_Fingerz]

Originally Posted by txbasschik

Sticking to the beat, waiting to add fills until the groove is solid, he perceives as "dumbing down" the part.

That alone should be reason enough to fire him. Experimenting and not putting a musician in a box is one thing, but when you can't keep a solid beat then it becomes an issue. He needs to realize that when playing originals and writing that it's not ALWAYS time to show off, most certainly when you guys can't even use his drum tracks on the album.

If (and only if) this guy is a really close friend of yours, you need to at least tell him that he needs to shape up or ship out. Let him know that when doing originals, he can show off when he's done his job proficiently and feels it will enrich the music, not whenever he wants to. If this doesn't do it, then it's time to find another drummer

[fretlessman71]

You wouldn't be the first band who used "ghosts" in the studio. If you got a VERY solid studio drummer, explained the situation and hired him to come in and re-lay drum tracks in one day, I bet you could make it work. But all involved would have to be cool with that first.

[txbasschik]

Originally Posted by kraigo

The only one I was ever subscribed to (newsgroup), they were way too busy flaming each other to really get to anyone else. I'm primarily a drummer, but the discussions on drum forums really bore me to tears. Factor in the signal to noise ratio and "Welcome to Talk Bass".

As far as recording, it's tough. I've done a lot of it in my basement. The best thing I've learned is to get the best isolation in the headphones that you can (keep the acoustic drums out to a very large degree), absolutely crank the click and mix in a small amount of the guide track. It's very easy for an out of time part to drag the drummer off beat for a moment. Minimal guide tracks are better. The drummer is going to be held accountable to the click, so that's what he should be hearing most of in his phones. He should never have to struggle even a little to hear the click.

Other things that help are to have a drum machine doing a shaker on eighths and a cowbell on quarters to try to make the click a little less clinical. He can imagine that it's his friend Brian playing percussion with him or something.

If I were trying to record with a band as well as a click, I'd suggest that I, again, get almost no band (a bit of guitar and vocal) in the headphones and almost all click. The rest of the band would get pretty much no click, but whatever else they wanted.

Making it rock and still tight with a click on the drumset is a real challenge. Don't tell me otherwise unless you've done it. The best thing a drummer can do is get a recording system (it doesn't have to be very sophisticated) and practice doing it.

KO

We didn't use a click. I suggested one. The engineer suggested one. Drummer didn't want to use one. He'd never used one before, so that's understandable.

He needs to, though.

Maybe I should bring a metronome to practice? We would all benefit from it. I've had better tempo on jam night, with people I'd never played with before. That would get *everyone* used to the click, and then it wouldn't be a big deal come studio time.

Thanks! I like the suggestion of having a shaker/cowbell to "soften" the click, too! We should just name all such click tracks "Brian".

Cherie