singer with baaaaaad sense of time

[duff beer]

Many, many years ago our band recorded the music to "Everything I Do I Do For You" by Bryan Adams as a favour for our drummer's boss. His daughter was getting married and his wife (the mother of the bride) wanted to sing that song at the wedding, and wanted backing music.

We made a cassette of the music and she came down to a practice to run through it. She had a decent voice but didn't understand timing. Our singer/guitarist spent an entire hour coaching her through it, but she never got it right unless she followed our singer's prompting. On her own she was completely lost. We found out later that she tried to sing it at the wedding anyway and it was a complete train wreck.

[mellowinman]

Originally Posted by Ewo

I'd appreciate any insight y'all can offer. I've been gigging for a long time, and this is a problem I've never run into before.

We've got a month-long Friday gig coming in January, and our singer quit for medical reasons. The band is a quintet: drums, bass, keys, guitar, vocalist. So last night we auditioned a new singer.

The guy's got a positive personality, seems motivated, and has a good sense of pitch. His intonation wasn't the problem; that's something I've run into often enough.

The trouble is that he seems to have little to no sense of rhythm and phrasing. We were running through some tunes that were familiar to us all, and he'd start vocal phrases way out of time. Like, the one in the vocal phrase would fall on the three of a bar, or he'd be singing a phrase over the wrong chord change. Or when the vocal phrase had three eighth notes as a pickup to the one, he'd put the pickup square on the one.

It wasn't just a single mistake; this was chronic, through the whole audition. The drummer and I talked to him when we stopped playing for the night, and politely said this was gonna be a problem. He took it very positively, and went home with a CD of a half dozen tunes to woodshed. We left it that we'll give him one more shot at an audition, on Sunday.

What do you figure? Run into this before? (It's new to me, at this level of severity.) Suggestions how to handle it would be appreciated.

This is not the singer you are looking for.

[Ewo]

It ain't happening...

We had the guy back this afternoon for a redo of the audition. Even with a CD of specific tunes to practice before this mulligan, he just has no sense of how a vocal line fits with the chord changes. Sometimes he'll start a line a couple beats late, sometimes a couple beats early, sometimes over the wrong chord change, almost at random.

Best I can figure, he simply can't internalize counting four to a bar--can't feel the meter, IOW. It's sad, because he really wants the gig and seems like a nice enough guy, but there's no potential for him to be able to do this.

So we're still looking for a singer. Again, thanks to everyone for the comments, suggestions, experiences.

[Downunderwonder]

Had a singer like that in the early days. We used to have to cue him. Like letting a dog off its lead, wait wait, go! He could sing pretty well.

Some years later he was doing some big shows, I guess his vocal coach taught him to count himself in.

[MarkMgibson]

Just move on and keep auditioning. I always thought timing should be the most simple thing for a singer, and if they can't manage a few simple R&R standards, then that's all I need to hear. Minor problems will be ironed out by rehearsal, but what you're descibing, forget it. I'd rather deal with a singer with a few pitch problems than one with no sense of timing. Rhythm is an instinctive thing - either you have it or you don't.

[rimbaud]

Originally Posted by ronaldpdbrandt

It could be one of two things:

1. He didn't know the songs, but got nervous and tried to pretend that he did. If this is the case, he'll hopefully learn them before the next audition and be much better.

2. He has bad timing and can't hear it. There is usually no remedy for this. I know a guy who can know a song backwards and forwards, and can sing along with the recording with no problem, but as soon as he tries to do it with a band, he loses the melody and timing completely.

Agree n°2: I had to face that with one of my... ex-girlfriend, really killing voice, very lyrical (and she was smoking, many of us were jealous ) but... ther's nothing you can do. The more experienced of us tried some exercises with her, she was compltely lost in band situation. The only way to support her was to let her introduce the song (building a specific vocal intro for instance) and to follow her, and strangely, it was working , not so moving tempo, she was really in....

The weird thing too: she could dance in tempo !! without any problem !

[Silas Stingy]

I find it annoying when you have bothered to learn and sing harmonies that the singer then phrases differently during a gig, I've picked a few up on that.

[MrLenny1]

Singers with bad timing is very common to me.
Most are hardly in pitch and don't know any music theory at all.
Good luck , keep auditioning.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

I'd rather deal with a singer with a few pitch problems than one with no sense of timing.

Hmm, I'm the opposite. Unless you're talking about "small" pitch problems vs. "huge" timing issues, then I'm with you.

But both being equally off, I'd take the timing problem. Audiences are going to notice a singer being off-key a lot quicker than being a half-beat off on a syllable. Timing "problems" can just appear as though a singer is making the song his own, whereas being off-key is viewed by everyone as "just plain wrong."

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Hmm, I'm the opposite. Unless you're talking about "small" pitch problems vs. "huge" timing issues, then I'm with you.

But both being equally off, I'd take the timing problem. Audiences are going to notice a singer being off-key a lot quicker than being a half-beat off on a syllable. Timing "problems" can just appear as though a singer is making the song his own, whereas being off-key is viewed by everyone as "just plain wrong."

Yeah, that's what I meant. Minor problems can always be solved with practise. This guy sounds like he has no sense of rhythm whatsoever.

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

But both being equally off, I'd take the timing problem.

You have a point about pitchiness, especially for singers who can't *hear* that they're off pitch. But sometimes pitch problems can have a technological fix (better vocal monitors or IEMS). OTOH, a "singer's" inability to hear the one is almost always a serious between-the-ears problem—a fundamental lack of musicianship.

If, like the OP, I were thinking about second auditions in December to cover gigs in January, the guy who got lost in every audition tune isn't making that list. He might be a singer in a year or five, but he's no help to me next month.

[jive1]

Out of pitch singers sound bad, but singers with bad timing can trainwreck the band. They can come in a measure late, and throw the band off as they try to reset themselves to fit the vocals. Or they come in too early, and the band has to change things around to get to the section that the vocalist is in. You can never get into a groove with a singer with bad timing because you're always on the watch to catch up/rewind in order to sync up with the vocalist. Similar to a bad drummer, a vocalist with bad timing messes up the whole band. Even though vocals aren't necessarily part of the groove, it does tell you where you are in a song. Bad drummer is a bad compass. Bad vocalist is a bad map. Either will get you lost.

That's why I much much prefer vocalists who play an instrument or have experience playing in a band. These vocalists have a better idea of how to deal with auditory cues to tell them what section they are in, or the cadence of the lyrics. As bassists, we're used to listening and locking in with the drums and guitar for the changes. A karaoke singer is used to lyrics on the screen telling them where to come in. A singer who sings along with the CD has the original vocalist cue them on their timing. And if they miss, the original recording will cover it up. A choir vocalist is used to looking at the choir director, or others in their section for their cues. If they miss, there's others in their section that cover it up. But a vocalist in a Rock band is on an island, nothing is there to cover it up, and your cues are limited compared to other vocal situations.

[bass81800]

Hope the singer you auditioned takes this an an opportunity to go take some lessons to work on the problem.

After several months of playing in a house band for an open mic, I am finding that the singers who also play an instrument seem to do much better. Last week, a woman got up to sing Round Midnight, a very involved jazz ballad, and I doubt if she was singing the right notes more than 10% of the time. I am wondering if she even knew how off pitch she was.

[godofthunder59]

Our singer suffers from this a bit, it can be very unnerving if front of a crowd. We work with him constantly on it. He has been in the band 16 years and he brings much to the table timing just isn't one of them. Our drummer sings and keeps watch on him if he misses a cue the drummer jumps in till he catches up. Most in the crowd don't even know whats happening it's pretty seamless.

[eloann]

I've got a reunion gig with my old band on friday. Now, we're all a little rusty ; I'll play drums which I haven't done on stage for a year. The guitar and bass guys have been busy with other projects, and even though with just 3 rehearshals to put things back together we do make mistakes, it still works. They've even improved in some ways.

However, the keyboard/singer put his gear in the basement and hasn't played or sung since. He's never had perfect timing (which I find a bit strange since he started out on drums and still plays them semi-decently) but it has only gotten worse - or maybe I had forgotten it was that bad. He knows the songs but often sings off beat, which has a tendency to throw me/us off. I could play to a click and let him do his thing trying not to pay attention but it's never been the way we worked and I don't feel like starting this now.

I'm just wondering whether I'll want to play another of these "reunion shows". I guess we'll see how this one goes (that was the deal from the start on my end anyway)

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Ewo

Best I can figure, he simply can't internalize counting four to a bar--can't feel the meter, IOW.

I have had guitar and bass students like this. Most of us have decent meter and can count through a measure and keep ourselves on track intuitively, but when you are cursed by not having this basic intuitive feel, it takes a monumental effort to learn it. I have all kinds of method books and crazy exercises for my students devoted purely to rhythm. It detracts and is a serious departure from making music with their chosen instrument, but without it, they aren't going to progress or have much success, and probably much embarassment and frustration instead.

Well, you gave him a fair shot, he knows what he needs to work on, and where there's a will, there's a way. Perhaps he'll be ready the next time opportunity knocks.

[Ewo]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

I have had guitar and bass students like this. Most of us have decent meter and can count through a measure and keep ourselves on track intuitively, but when you are cursed by not having this basic intuitive feel, it takes a monumental effort to learn it.

Yeah. I'm an old cat, been playing for a loooong time, and have seen plenty of deficiencies in time and phrasing before. Heck, I'm always working on taking my own to the next level!

This case was an anomaly to me, though. It was like a colorblind person taking an art class in watercolors.

Real nice guy, real sincere, super motivated. He just didn't have that innate ability that could be developed.

[ssabass]

Originally Posted by jive1

Out of pitch singers sound bad, but singers with bad timing can trainwreck the band. They can come in a measure late, and throw the band off as they try to reset themselves to fit the vocals. Or they come in too early, and the band has to change things around to get to the section that the vocalist is in. You can never get into a groove with a singer with bad timing because you're always on the watch to catch up/rewind in order to sync up with the vocalist. Similar to a bad drummer, a vocalist with bad timing messes up the whole band. Even though vocals aren't necessarily part of the groove, it does tell you where you are in a song. Bad drummer is a bad compass. Bad vocalist is a bad map. Either will get you lost.

That's why I much much prefer vocalists who play an instrument or have experience playing in a band. These vocalists have a better idea of how to deal with auditory cues to tell them what section they are in, or the cadence of the lyrics. As bassists, we're used to listening and locking in with the drums and guitar for the changes. A karaoke singer is used to lyrics on the screen telling them where to come in. A singer who sings along with the CD has the original vocalist cue them on their timing. And if they miss, the original recording will cover it up. A choir vocalist is used to looking at the choir director, or others in their section for their cues. If they miss, there's others in their section that cover it up. But a vocalist in a Rock band is on an island, nothing is there to cover it up, and your cues are limited compared to other vocal situations.

A brilliant and well written commentary! Thanks for that, it all makes perfect sense.

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by electracoyote

I have had guitar and bass students like this. Most of us have decent meter and can count through a measure and keep ourselves on track intuitively, but when you are cursed by not having this basic intuitive feel, it takes a monumental effort to learn it. I have all kinds of method books and crazy exercises for my students devoted purely to rhythm. It detracts and is a serious departure from making music with their chosen instrument, but without it, they aren't going to progress or have much success, and probably much embarassment and frustration instead.

I used to be the guy who couldn't clap along in time to a song with everyone else. When I took bass lessons for the first time, my teacher told me I had to work on my timing. He gave me some exercises and it took a LOT of hard work to get where I am today. It can be done, but those who don't have natural timing will have to work a lot harder to get there.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by godofthunder59

Our singer suffers from this a bit, it can be very unnerving if front of a crowd. We work with him constantly on it. He has been in the band 16 years and he brings much to the table timing just isn't one of them. Our drummer sings and keeps watch on him if he misses a cue the drummer jumps in till he catches up. Most in the crowd don't even know whats happening it's pretty seamless.

16 years and he still can't count!! You must be the most patient band on earth, 'cause I'd have booted him 15 years ago.

I've had friends who have absolutely no natural rhythm (can't clap in time to a song), and a few of them have taken up playing instruments. It doesn't matter how long they play, the always end up ranging from bad to abysmal. When the problem is that bad, it's nearly impossible to overcome.