So I'm doing a complete scene transition...

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Where I live, $1,500 is good pay at a club. But I have done dozens of weddings for over $5,000. The private stuff is where the money is. A lot of guys thing playing weddings is dumb. You may have to get over yourself a little bit. I actually like them. But I'm rare in that respect.

Great advice!

However, be careful. We have quite a few young "artist" in the forum who are pretty far from accepting being in a wedding band.

Me, I would jump ship tonight to land that type of opportunity.

Blue

[jordy_on_bass]

jaywa, that's pretty much our target audience here. They're the crowd that are usually out watching cover bands!

two fingers, I didn't notice that I had used it so much. I think I used it about 4 or 5 times in my original post lol. My favourite word at the moment is Glockspiel...don't ask me why...

[CS]

My guess is that coming from original bands and starting this cover band with a drummer, you think that you are going to have control over the set.

As soon as you get a singer, that will dictate what songs you do. If you can get one to cover your proposed set list all well and good.

Also when you add in other musicians if there seems to be an open forum re song choice they also will want to suggest songs.

Also if you and the drummer are founder members are you two going to get the gigs? Who runs rehearsals?

In all the stuff I've done over two many years, it falls into three types of project...

1 The democracy type originals band.

2 The singer song writer type originals band.

3 The covers band with a set and specific band leader.

In the 4 covers bands that I have played in, each time there was a band leader who sang the songs, picked the songs, ran the rehearsals and got the gigs.

IMHO you are trying to do 3 but run it like 1. It might not work.

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by jaywa

Just with regard to the gtr vs. keys question.

An interesting thing has happened in my cover band. When I joined two and a half years ago, the BL/lead singer played keys (passably) on about 20-30% of the songs during a 4-hour show. We also had a female co-lead singer who played keys (poorly) on another few songs. This in addition to two guitarists (and the BL also plays acoustic guitar).

Within 6 months after I joined the band, the female singer was gone. Not too long after that, the BL started cutting the keyboard songs out of the show and for the last year and a half we haven't even brought a keyboard out on gigs. The sound is MUCH cleaner without the keyboard and it also gives us a lot more room on the stages we play (which tend to run small in these parts).

Keys can be an asset but IMO they have at least as much downside as good. And if you've got two guitarists who are reasonably talented and have a good understanding of dynamics and space, you can cover all but the really cheezy 80s keyboard sounds and horns pretty effectively with a two guitar lineup.

Good points here. My BL has been pushing our female lead singer to play keys on our "off" songs. Sometimes it helps to fill the sound out but sometimes Andy Summers' phrase "smothered in keyboards, like Yes on a bad day" comes to mind (and I love Yes, but I know what he means).

Originally Posted by jordy_on_bass

Wow, thanks for the input guys!!

It's opened my eyes up about the keys thing, maybe two guitarists is more suited towards what we want to do. I'll put up a list of 20 songs (first half of a 40 song setlist I need to learn), they all seem to be geared towards two guitarists although I haven't seen the second half yet as the drummer doesn't want to bombard me.

The hardest part I am finding so far is that a lot of these are songs I don't know well, some I haven't even heard before. Of the first 20 songs I got sent, I lucked out with knowing Enter Sandman and that was it!! I've learnt about 13 of the first 20 songs I have been sent so it's still a long road for me as of yet.

OK, so the first of 20 songs;

Betterman - pearl jam
Mr jones – counting crows
Iris – goo goo dolls
The middle – jimmy eat world
I alone - live
Place your hands - reef
Kryptonite – 3 doors down
Boys of summer - the ataris
Enter sandman
Selling the drama - live
Bullet with butterfly wings – smashing pumkins
Sex on fire – kings of leon
Californication – red hot peppers
Zombie - cranberries
When I come around – green day
Drive - incubus
Killing in the name – Rage against machine
Run away train – soul asylum
Plush – stone temple piolets
Broken - seether

I have mixed reactions to this list. It's mostly a list for people who were into grunge in the 90s, which is to say your 25-35 year-olds or so - not too bad of a demographic, but not universal appeal either. That's OK, though, it's good to have a defined genre you're doing rather than being all things to all people.

My concern, though, would be that even within that genre, some of the songs are a little too off-the-beaten track. It looks like a list the BL wants to play rather than a list the audience wants to hear, and that's not the formula for a successful cover band. Iris, the Middle, Sex on Fire, Kryptonite, Enter Sandman, there you have some more recognizable tunes. But of all the Green Day tunes out there, why "When I Come Around" rather than something like "Holiday?"

I'm also curious who's singing all this. It's hard to imagine the same singer who's doing 3 Doors Down or Green Day is also going to sing Cranberries songs.

[pklima]

Looking at that setlist, it's not really that big a transition. You're going from playing rock to playing rock. As long as you get along OK with the rest of the band you'll be fine.

[jordy_on_bass]

Thanks for your input CS, much appreciated. Food for thought.

hrodbert696, this wasn't a list that I chose - it was just the first half of songs I need to learn. In regards to the cranberries song, we've discussed my wife singing it if she is at our gigs. She isn't interested in singing for the band, but said she is open for doing the odd song here and there. I also wanted to play holiday, but that's what the drummer sent me.

pklima, you'd be surprised!! I've had to totally adjust my playing style. I usually have a very hard, thunderous attack with my fingers. I've had to tone it down a lot to get the sound I want with the fairly smooth, even consistency and that's taken a fair bit of practice.

Interesting point about the wedding and corporate gigs, how much more do they pay compared to the regular bar/club gig??

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by bluewine

When the OP said covers, I was thinking classic covers.

I'm 59 and while I've heard of the bands, I don't recognize one song.

I'm out of touch, is there consistent paying club and bar work for that material?

Blue

Yes.

[pklima]

Originally Posted by jordy_on_bass

pklima, you'd be surprised!! I've had to totally adjust my playing style. I usually have a very hard, thunderous attack with my fingers. I've had to tone it down a lot to get the sound I want with the fairly smooth, even consistency and that's taken a fair bit of practice.

LOL, I didn't quite mean that "all rock is alike". But you are familiar with the techniques and the basic aesthetic already, so you're not really leaping into something totally alien.

I've recently explained to a girl who's finishing a jazz piano degree how to play Sean Paul songs properly. That was a more distant transition, but it wasn't hard either.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by jordy_on_bass

:

1. How does the dynamic change in a cover band compared to a band that writes it's own music? Is there less ego problems when it comes to the task since the music is already written? Are the people who play in cover bands generally more professional than hard rock and metal bands?

When it comes to ego, both scenes can be ripe with it. However, pretentiousness is much, much worse in the all-originals scene. When it comes to professionalism, I've experienced very unprofessional cover projects and incredibly professional original acts. The one universal is that regardless of being a cover band or an original band, almost every successful act with longevity (the key word being "longevity") that I've known has been staffed by consumate professionals.

2. How does your band react to you improvising throughout songs? After learning some of the songs, I've found they are fairly simple and boring to play. So I've been improvising whilst practicing at home. Do your band members invite it or do they want you to play it exactly as it was written?

It really depends on the situation and style of music. I played in a modern rock project for almost nine years - everything from Green Day to Pantera to Metallica to Poison. I always tried to remain somewhat authentic to the original bass line with some exceptions, such as playing more busy parts under guitar solos. If the song had a very distinct pick tone, I'd use a pick. If the guitar line had a pinched harmonic in the 5the measure of the second verse, my guitarist was playing that pinched harmonic.

Now, I'm playing in a country project and I improvise all night long, especially on the older country stuff (i.e., Johnny Cash, Hank Jr.). Even on a national level, if you listen to what the Nashville studio cats are playing, you'll notice that the live cats and the ones who play at the Opry aren't aping the original bass lines completely.

3. Is playing in a cover band a primary source of income for any of you? If so, how many gigs per week/month do you play? If it isn't, what else do you do for income? (relevant for me at this point in time as I have recently been made redundant from my job)

I haven't become rich off of music, but I have gigged throughout getting a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and now I'm coming towards the end of my course work in a Ph.D program. While I've also worked day gigs during that time, being a musician has made being a po' student a lot easier.

4. How often do you and your band rehearse?

Not often. My last band rehearsed maybe two or three times a year.

5. The drummer and I have differing views - he wants two guitarists whilst I think one guitarist and a keyboard player would be ideal. What do you think is the better combination?

For the style of music you're doing and going by the song list you posted on the previous page, you will benefit much more from two guitarists than from a keys player. If you were doing variety music, 80s, or non-rock Top 40, then I'd highly suggest a keys player. But keys would probably more likely than not cheese up the material you're planning on doing. None of that stuff contains any very distinct keyboard parts.

[Session1969]

1.) It's a different animal and I have a completely different mindset when it comes to cover bands. Cover bands are there to entertain the patrons not to convey my favorite songs or even make some sort of compromise in any way. It all about entertaining the audience and getting payed by making the bar owner as big of a profit as possible.Period. If you aren't playing dance songs, you're dead in the water, imo. Don't get me wrong , I love hard rock/metal. Steve Harris, JPJ, Tom Hamilton and Justin Chancellor are huge inspirations to me but I put myself in the shoes of a patron(who,most likely, doesn't want to hear hard rock at a bar. I think it's someone who goes to a bar with friends or a date and wants to dance, not stand around or sitting watching hard rock all night(some is o.k. but only the actual hits) Playing dance music doesn't define who you are as a musician in case your still at the age where it bothers you. It did me when I was younger and in retrospect was limiting overall. Fortunately, I got past it in my mid twenties.

People in cover bands (who are good) are generally better musicians because they've learned the different types of feel that separates different styles. I think it's important, regardless of what your favorite style of music is in this phase of your life.

Egos ? It depends on who you allow into your circle. I wouldn't generalize

2.) It depends how much improv you're talking about. If a song is boring for you to play then listen to how you're not stepping all over the vocals and enjoy. Vocals are the most important part. imo. I get off on creating a good sound and I don't care how simple I'm playing. Another thing is that the bass parts on covers are done by actual professionals. Better to take note than to get bored with perfection.

3.) 2-4 gigs a month. I make way more money in sales.

4.)1-2 times a week.

5.) What are your options ? Is there a kb or a 2nd guitarist available ? I've had great luck with keyboard players but they've either been pro or smart enough not to overplay. Over playing is a character defect and I avoid those characters.

Picking covers when it's just the two of you so you can jam together is fine but you guys need to find a good singer and taylor the songs around his/her voice and be real about it rather than try to jam songs down someone's throat before hearing them sing. All of which is just my opinion. Hope this helps.

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by jordy_on_bass

Thanks for your input CS, much appreciated. Food for thought.

hrodbert696, this wasn't a list that I chose - it was just the first half of songs I need to learn. In regards to the cranberries song, we've discussed my wife singing it if she is at our gigs. She isn't interested in singing for the band, but said she is open for doing the odd song here and there. I also wanted to play holiday, but that's what the drummer sent me.

pklima, you'd be surprised!! I've had to totally adjust my playing style. I usually have a very hard, thunderous attack with my fingers. I've had to tone it down a lot to get the sound I want with the fairly smooth, even consistency and that's taken a fair bit of practice.

Interesting point about the wedding and corporate gigs, how much more do they pay compared to the regular bar/club gig??

Oh, I was quite clear that you hadn't picked these songs. What I'm saying is that the selection so far raises some red flags; your partner says this is supposed to be a popular-radio-music cover band to make some money. While there is an audience for the style of music he's proposing, that list doesn't look like it was chosen with real practical business sense as the first priority. I assume since it's just the two of you at this point, that's a conversation that you two should be having. It would be one thing if you were joining an established gigging band and that was their list; but here you're starting from scratch, so plan carefully and watch the red flags.

Weddings and corporate parties will pay four figures whereas a bar gig will pay three. If you want to play those, start learning Sweet Caroline, Love Shack and Poker Face.

[Session1969]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Oh, I was quite clear that you hadn't picked these songs. What I'm saying is that the selection so far raises some red flags; your partner says this is supposed to be a popular-radio-music cover band to make some money. While there is an audience for the style of music he's proposing, that list doesn't look like it was chosen with real practical business sense as the first priority. I assume since it's just the two of you at this point, that's a conversation that you two should be having. It would be one thing if you were joining an established gigging band and that was their list; but here you're starting from scratch, so plan carefully and watch the red flags.

Weddings and corporate parties will pay four figures whereas a bar gig will play three. If you want to play those, start learning Sweet Caroline, Love Shack and Poker Face.

+1

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Oh, I was quite clear that you hadn't picked these songs. What I'm saying is that the selection so far raises some red flags; your partner says this is supposed to be a popular-radio-music cover band to make some money. While there is an audience for the style of music he's proposing, that list doesn't look like it was chosen with real practical business sense as the first priority. I assume since it's just the two of you at this point, that's a conversation that you two should be having. It would be one thing if you were joining an established gigging band and that was their list; but here you're starting from scratch, so plan carefully and watch the red flags.

Exactly what I was thinking, however other TB experts say there's a huge market for that material.

It might be a regional thing. If you talked your way into a show at any of the reputable cover clubs in Milwaukee WI playing material that obscure you would not be asked back.

We're still back in the stone age here.

Blue

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by ChrisB2

Yes.

Chris, I see several others here that also question the market for that material.

I might be wrong but I'm not alone.

Blue

[bassgrooves2]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Exactly what I was thinking, however other TB experts say there's a huge market for that material.

It might be a regional thing. If you talked your way into a show at any of the reputable cover clubs in Milwaukee WI playing material that obscure you would not be asked back.

We're still back in the stone age here.

Blue

Region probably has a great deal to do with it. Where i perform, there is a market for these types of songs as I myself play many of me in my cover project. You do really have to choose wisely where and when you choose to play certain material around here.

I grew up on 90s rock as well as classic rock and progressive etc and while there is lots of material would LOVE to cover, it's not always a good time and place to do so.

I do highly recommend adding lots of staples to your list as long as you guys are just getting things together anyway.
When I started putting together the cover project we have going now, I started with great music from the 90s that I grew up on and we played it in a particular venue that had patrons that I know and grew up with as well, so we were all brought up on the same music. That same material does not play well for tourist crowds and beach music joints etc.

In short, learn as much material as you can, whenever you can - even of you think you don't like it. You'll probably be surprised by how much material is quite fun to play for a crowd that may be a total drag when playing in rehearsal. Plus it will make you a much more attractive product for more venues.

Just my .02

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by bassgrooves2

Region probably has a great deal to do with it. Where i perform, there is a market for these types of songs as I myself play many of me in my cover project. You do really have to choose wisely where and when you choose to play certain material around here.

Great advice.

My opinion, when your putting together any type of cover band I think trouble starts when you use the "songs I like" methodology to make up your set list.

Blue

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Exactly what I was thinking, however other TB experts say there's a huge market for that material.

It might be a regional thing. If you talked your way into a show at any of the reputable cover clubs in Milwaukee WI playing material that obscure you would not be asked back.

We're still back in the stone age here.

Blue

I think there's a market for the genre - it's mainly 90s grunge. But if you're going to form a 90s grunge cover band, it's one thing to play Smells Like Teen Spirit and another thing to play Bullet with Butterfly Wings. And you won't be playing many weddings.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

I think there's a market for the genre - it's mainly 90s grunge. But if you're going to form a 90s grunge cover band, it's one thing to play Smells Like Teen Spirit and another thing to play Bullet with Butterfly Wings. And you won't be playing many weddings.

I disagree. There's lots of 90s music in the list, but only a small portion of it is grunge.

And why not play weddings? 10 years ago someone would probably say that you wouldn't get much work playing Bon Jovi or Journey at a wedding, but you'll hear that more often than the Chicken Dance or the Hokey Pokey. Why wouldn't this stuff go over at a wedding? Folks who get married, tend to get married around 25-40. The music they want to hear is typically music from their youth from about 12-20. So at 25, the music of my youth is early 2000s. At 35, it's 90s music. Aside from older family members, this is the stuff that they and their peers will be listening to and be nostalgic for.

[jive1]

BTW, I don't consider the list to be obscure or niche at all. Most of those tunes were hit songs in their time, and lots of folks know those songs.

I subbed with 3 different A-list bands that have many of those songs on the list. If that stuff isn't 'in' where you are, it will be. 90s music will be popular in the bars in the way that 80s music is/was. Similar to how 70s music was popular when I was gigging in the 90s, or how we were playing 60s tunes in the 80s.

Someone had to start, and it's better to get in on the ground floor. While other bands are catching up and making a name for themselves, you already did all that and are primed for when it becomes 'in'. In 1995, if someone put a band together covering Bon Jovi, Bryan Adams, Journey, Def Leppard, etc. you'd call them a schtick novelty act. Today, just about every cover band plays that stuff, and the audiences eat it up.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by jive1

Today, just about every cover band plays that stuff, and the audiences eat it up.

Maybe in the hipper cities, not in Milwaukee.

Blue