So I've come to the conclusion I've got to quit my band.

fr0me0 · #1 08-24-2006, 09:05 AM

and its mostly because of timing.

Our drummer has insane chops but he can't keep time. When we went into the studio we played all together because he didn't want to/can't play along with that "clicking thing in the earphone."

We've been playing together for 5-6 months and we arn't that tight. The bandleader bitches that we need to play tighter. The drummer blames the fact I play with my fingers. I blame the fact that he can't play with a click. I ask him why he can't play with a click "is the click speeding up and slowing down.... can the click not maintain a steady pace?" and he just doesn't say anything.

Granted we've gotten a little tighter because I've learned to listen to the drums and match them rather than assume they will be on time. That comes with the big price of stage presence because now I'm so focused on trying to match the tempo of the drummer I don't move around or anything. they tell me I need to learn how to groove but I can lock in just find and groove with a drum machine a metronome or the dummer at my jazz band its just when I have to focus so much on matching his sloppy pace.

If he thinks a song is too slow he'll just start speeding it up. Which normally is fine and dandy but he can't keep a steady pace. I told him if he thinks it too slow to just keep playing it at that slow pace and after the song suggest we play it at a faster tempo and then we'll take the entire song through at that faster tempo. I try to explain that you've got to know the rules before you can break them. If you can play at a steady pace all day sure take it up a few BPM and keep it there but if you have trouble keeping a steady pace work on playing in time perfectly through the whole song before trying to adjust the tempo on the fly.

He probably breaks at least 30 bucks worth of sticks a week so its not like he can't afford a 20 dollar metronome.

Our band leader suggests we listen to each other and meet half way to sort things out. But as far as I'm concerned its pretty black and white. I can play to a click and he can't. I can keep a tempo steady even if the guitar riffs are getting a littel more busy and he can't. He doesn't understand that things can get louder without getting faster. He doesn't undestand that you can play more drums in a bar but remain at the same tempo.

Its so frustrasting because technically he can drum so well he just can't keep time but that should be easily solved if he'd practice with a click. When we recorded the person recording even told him. "You are a great drummer you just need to work on keeping your timing steady. Every person I've eve seen on a half decent stage played like a machine when it came to timing"

I like the music and the band leader and I have been friends for 6 or 7 years now but I'm at my wits end.

I'm sure you've all heard the same rant a million times (or given it) but I don't know what else to do. I even told him that I'd try playing with a pick if he'd try playing with a click but I started picking and he didn't get a click so I cut out using the pick.

Does anyone have any suggesions on how to deal with a drummer with poor timing short of finding a new one?

pklima · #2 08-24-2006, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr0me0

and its mostly because of timing.

Our drummer has insane chops but he can't keep time

Here's a thought - he might lack basic fundamental technique. I play jazz with a young guy like that... fortunately he's working hard on the basics now. It used to be that he could play fast rock, fusion, odd time signatures but couldn't play a slow waltz to save his life. He's now working on things like efficient tone production, counting and really basic patterns. But at least he's willing to work and is making major improvement.

IME people who have "insane chops" but "can only play ______" do not, in fact, have much chops at all.

fr0me0 · #3 08-24-2006, 09:35 AM

I guess it would be how you clasify "chops"

He can definatly play a ton of drums really fast. If you say toss in a crash in here he'll do it. But the pace just keeps going from fast to slow fast to slow. Also he doesn't count so if you say beat one of beat two he has no idea what you mean.

If he was working on it that'd be great but if he's not going to fix it he's not going to get any better.

pklima · #4 08-24-2006, 09:41 AM

Yeah, if he doesn't think he's bad he's not going to improve. Run away.

Frankie Fender · #5 08-24-2006, 09:53 AM

Playing with an inconsistent drummer will spoil your own sense of time and split your concentration which will increase your mistakes and make you all sound bad. On top of that, you will never lock in and "groove".

As long as he is unwilling to admit the possibility that it may be his need of improvement I would..

A. look for a replacement
B. quit the band
C. reform the band
or
D. remain frustrated and sound like A$$

tlwaps · #6 08-24-2006, 09:56 AM

Or tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out.

mcdeath · #7 08-24-2006, 10:03 AM

Hmmm.

Maybe the problem is that he doesn't quite understand what a major PITA (pain in the a$$) not having consistent time is.

*shrug* why not suggest switching instruments for a few minutes? Loan him your bass, or a beater bass, and ask him to just thumb the open E string in time to the bass drum. Then sit on his throne and bang the bass drum in time and let him match it for a few minutes.

Then do it again but this time simulate what he does and then vary the tempo without warning and let him struggle with adjusting to it.

If that doesn't spell it out loud and clear, probably nothing will.

Frankie Fender · #8 08-24-2006, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlwaps

Or tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass on the way out.

Yeah, I forgot that one, the most obvious!

fr0me0 · #9 08-24-2006, 10:07 AM

I'm just going to give an ultimatum tonight or tomorrow either he can get a click and learn to play with one or I'll be looking for a new band.

the biggest problem is the last bassplayer he jammed with was great at adjusting to his time and he played with a pick so he blames it on me playing fingerstyle. I tried to explain the click doesn't lie If you are off the click. YOU are wrong NOT the click but he seems to think the old bass player adjusting to his poor time was "grooveing"

Man if only everyone in real life was like the people on talk bass.

FretFree · #10 08-24-2006, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr0me0

Also he doesn't count so if you say beat one of beat two he has no idea what you mean.

I am a firm beliver that if you are going to play any instrument (drums/percussion for sure) you must be able to count.

Sounds like if he doesn't know where the beat is, timing is perhaps the least of his worries.

McHack · #11 08-24-2006, 10:09 AM

My thoughts:

If the bass player & drummer cant mesh, its time to start finding people who can.

fr0me0 · #12 08-24-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdeath

Hmmm.

Maybe the problem is that he doesn't quite understand what a major PITA (pain in the a$$) not having consistent time is.

*shrug* why not suggest switching instruments for a few minutes? Loan him your bass, or a beater bass, and ask him to just thumb the open E string in time to the bass drum. Then sit on his throne and bang the bass drum in time and let him match it for a few minutes.

Then do it again but this time simulate what he does and then vary the tempo without warning and let him struggle with adjusting to it.

If that doesn't spell it out loud and clear, probably nothing will.

this is a great advice we actually tried this and he was like ok now keep time with the bass drum and throw in a snare and a hi hat. and naturally I can't cause I can't drum and he's like seeeeeee you can't even do it I thought your timing was great.

bassmonkeee · #13 08-24-2006, 10:29 AM

I don't care how many drums he can hit in a bar, if he can't do it at a consistent tempo, he can't play drums. I don't care if he can play really fast, if he can't play at a consistent tempo, he can't play drums. Period.

A drummer who can't keep time is as useful as a goalie without eyes or arms.

In your situation, I'd walk away and not look back. Life's too short to try and play two instruments in the rhythm section at one time. He can blame you using your fingers (what kind of lame excuse is that?) all he wants, but ultimately you have to make the decision that's right for you.

ric1312 · #14 08-24-2006, 11:09 AM

If you really want to wake him up do a live recording where the drums are up front. Then unless he's tottally self deluded he'll hear where he drives things to fast, slows down, and comes off of fills bad.

Had a drummer with the same problems. told him several time. Until he heard a recording he didn't get it. He thought too fast equaled lots of energy, when all it did was makes us sound like a punk band trying to play rock.

Or course he may be tottaly deluded if he actually thinks your use of fingers instead of pick has anything to do with it. You should point out to him that the drummer is supposed to lay down the time in a consistant predictable manner, not be something that has to be haphazardly adjusted to at every change in the song and make you guess how fast it will go.

P.S. It sounds like the typical, I wanna be Neal Pert, Dave Lombardo, lead drummer syndrome. Instead of being concerned with laying down the tracks he wants to wow everyone with his chops/dynamics.

fr0me0 · #15 08-24-2006, 11:20 AM

I can slightly see why he says its cause I use my fingers cause I do play a little bit sloppy when I play with him. Its hard to make sure I have stage presence while singing harmoines and making sure I pay 100% attention to him so I can match is pace and then slowly try to bring him up or down to match the vocals or bring the vocals up to down to match his tempo.

He knows he plays out of time. When I say "If your timing is consistent why won't it line up with a click track." He is just quite. He knows his tempo is not always steady. He knows the click track is right and he's wrong. He's just too used to his old bass player catering to his inadequacies. He thinks it should be felt out not counted out and well thats just not how I do things.

bassmonkeee · #16 08-24-2006, 11:28 AM

What you are doing should have no bearing on his tempo. Sloppy but in time is still in time.

If he can play fast but not in a consistent tempo, then he needs to play simpler parts until he can actually get through them at the correct tempo. There is no other option. A band that speeds up and slows down will always be amateurish no matter how good the players, and no matter how good the material.

tim99 · #17 08-24-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr0me0

I'm just going to give an ultimatum tonight or tomorrow either he can get a click and learn to play with one or I'll be looking for a new band.

I like this. That way you are not really quitting and walking away, you are establishing a vital performance level that a member of the band has to have for you to remain. This is very valid. And it is good to give them a choice. And if you like the other guys and the music, you gotta let them know you want to stay but under what requirements.

And if they simply agree just to keep you around, you have to be ready to establish specific goals and a fixed timeframe. Like the drummer has to be able to play on time to a click track on every song in the studio by October 15. Or something like that.

And...you can quit and still be friends with the leader.

ogrossman · #18 08-24-2006, 12:23 PM

Do you have another drummer you know that you play well with? Maybe you could have an extra rehersal, on the sly, without telling your real drummer. Bring in your own drummer just to show the band what the real problem is. Then, even if you end up leaving, you aren't the bad guy.

Aussiephoenix · #19 08-24-2006, 12:27 PM

I used to play with a drummer like that...
great chops, absolutely no clue as to tempo...

We stuck with him cause we figured that a bit more practice would get him there... but in the end, he just cost us 2 singers...

the band dissolved after that.

the new drummer doesnt have such great chops, but he's not bad at all, and the best thing... dude's got a metronome in his skull... he's TIGHT. guess that makes him MUCH better than the old one.

fr0me0 · #20 08-24-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogrossman

Do you have another drummer you know that you play well with? Maybe you could have an extra rehersal, on the sly, without telling your real drummer. Bring in your own drummer just to show the band what the real problem is. Then, even if you end up leaving, you aren't the bad guy.

not really an option our lead guitar player and him are friends he'd tell him. Its at the point where this whole thing has really soured me on the whole band. I'm sick of being told to increase my stage presence when I've got to deal with a drummer that can't keep time. I'm sick of being told to try to lock in with the drummer that can't keep time. I'm sick of pulling teeth to try to get a drummer to play with a click when its obvious he can't keep time.