starting a songwriter's group

[dullsilver_mike]

I figured the management elements of this could best be discussed in the band management forum, but I understand if it needs to be moved.



I live in a city of about 50,000 and I'm trying to start a songwriter's group. I just put up my first set of flyers/craigslist postings today. I live in a rural tri-city area with a total population of about 100k, I figure that's probably enough to have a pretty sustainable club--and so advertised it as a tri-city songwriting group.

I wanted advice from anyone who runs a group like this or really anyone who can shed some insight at all. I'm fighting an uphill battle because:

1. I've lived in the general area for 6 years, but am brand new to this actual city and have no connections with local musicians/venues/etc.
2. There are two college towns in the area with neat stuff going on, but the city I actually live in (and the biggest around) has almost zero night life--I've looked and looked and it's a cultural and artistic wasteland as far as I can tell.


I want to start the group because I've workshopped a lot in the past and really want that kind of help with my writing and I also want to start fostering some sense of musical community in the middle of this original music desert.
All tips for recruiting, promoting, and organizing are very much appreciated. I really have no idea what I'm doing at this point--please help me figure out how to make it work (if it can work at all).



Here's my craigslist ad for your critique (the printed ads are the same plus added contact info):

Tri-City Songwriters Group

Looking for original songwriters interested in starting a songwriting group.

We’ll work out the fine details together based on interest, but the main point of the group is to meet for regular workshopping. It’s a great way to get articulate feedback from other musicians on your new work and help develop some musical community in the tri-cities area.

Perfect if you want to:
Develop your craft
Stay motivated/ fight writer’s block
Network
Arrange open mic nights and other events

Just send me an email via the craigslist link if interested.
Thanks,
Mike

Thanks for your input!

[JohnMCA72]

I'm in the very early stages of something similar. My goal is to establish a "musicians' services" non-profit organization, to help support & encourage the local music scene. Services I expect to eventually get into include:

- Songwriters' workshops
- Referrals for musicians, bands, teachers, venues, etc.
- Rehearsal & recording facilities
- Live sound, lighting, & logistical support
- Assistance with promo kits, web sites, etc.
- Organize festivals, open jams, & other opportunities for local musicians
- etc., TBD, as developed

I'd also like to see what others have to say about such organizations, especially if they've got experience with them from the inside or out.

JM

[Marko5657]

Why would a songwriter be interested in joining a group?

Would they have physical meetings?

I frequent a songwriting forum for sharing ideas and discuss songwriting; I enjoy that, but few songwriters collaborate on songs.

I work on my songs in my home studio; I don’t even want another “songwriter” there with me.

I also had a band for a short time, and when it came to registering copyrights, it turned into a major problem.

If there are such songwriting groups, I'd be interested in knowing how it works.

[dullsilver_mike]

Originally Posted by Marko5657

Why would a songwriter be interested in joining a group?

Would they have physical meetings?

I frequent a songwriting forum for sharing ideas and discuss songwriting; I enjoy that, but few songwriters collaborate on songs.

I work on my songs in my home studio; I don’t even want another “songwriter” there with me.

I also had a band for a short time, and when it came to registering copyrights, it turned into a major problem.

If there are such songwriting groups, I'd be interested in knowing how it works.

The main point is to meet for regular workshopping as stated in the ad that I quoted. In order to workshop, the group would have to have regular physical meetings. I find workshopping to be an invaluable process that greatly improves the work of everyone involved (when you have folks that know how to workshop properly).

And it's been my experience that the best songwriters in my area (where I used to live, not the new location mentioned in my post) collaborate regularly; that doesn't mean they share credit for each song, but they certainly help inspire, guide, and motivate one another. Working with other songwriters certainly pushes you to develop your lyrical and music techniques.

It's also often called a songwriters circle. Surely many Tbers have heard of or been involved in these.


I guess my question is: are the reasons for joining such a group not made clear by the flyer? I thought it was pretty straightforward.

[erikbojerik]

I think the term "workshopping" might need some definition for the uninitiated.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by erikbojerik

I think the term "workshopping" might need some definition for the uninitiated.

UK comic Alexei Sayle once made a piquant comment about those who use the term "workshop" and are not involved in light industry, but a direct quote would get me banned.

In any case, the ad seems fine to me, if you really want do do something like this. My brief observation of similar projects leads me to believe that this sort of thing just attracts a bunch of embarrassingly untalented people who want to steal from each other, but that may be a darker view than those here are willing to accept, even if it's true.

Moreover, as a philosophical and practical point, I doubt that musicians should be "encouraged" unless there's a point to it -- such as selling gear. Being a musician of marginal worth in what is an almost unbelievably hostile and pernicious professional environment is a great way to waste a lot of time and money...or sometimes your entire life.

That said...if indeed you are doing this with the intention of developing a local "scene" and keep your eyes unwaveringly on that goal, there's a possibility that you may accomplish something of value. A local scene is almost essential to producing a viable regional breakout act; the scene is more important than the musician. A vital scene will produce good acts seemingly out of thin air.

Good luck with that!

[dullsilver_mike]

per Erik's suggestion:

Originally Posted by wikipedia(yeah I used wikipedia as my source)

A writing circle is a group of like-minded writers needing support for their work, either through writing peer critiques, workshops or classes, or just encouragement. There are many different types of writing circles and writing groups based on location, style of writing, or format.

Originally Posted by Bongolation

UK comic Alexei Sayle once made a piquant comment about those who use the term "workshop" and are not involved in light industry, but a direct quote would get me banned.

In any case, the ad seems fine to me, if you really want do do something like this. My brief observation of similar projects leads me to believe that this sort of thing just attracts a bunch of embarrassingly untalented people who want to steal from each other, but that may be a darker view than those here are willing to accept, even if it's true.

Moreover, as a philosophical and practical point, I doubt that musicians should be "encouraged" unless there's a point to it -- such as selling gear. Being a musician of marginal worth in what is an almost unbelievably hostile and pernicious professional environment is a great way to waste a lot of time and money...or sometimes your entire life.

That said...if indeed you are doing this with the intention of developing a local "scene" and keep your eyes unwaveringly on that goal, there's a possibility that you may accomplish something of value. A local scene is almost essential to producing a viable regional breakout act; the scene is more important than the musician. A vital scene will produce good acts seemingly out of thin air.

Good luck with that!

I'll look up the comment if I can find it (or you can send me a private message with it, and I promise I'll find it more funny than offensive). Edit* found that quote--not all that funny out of context, I bet I'd laugh pretty hard at the whole bit that went along with it though.* A lot of people do say nasty things about workshopping, but I've always found it to be incredibly helpful--that isn't to say that you shouldn't be descriminating with who you choose to workshop with. I also personally hate the romantic notion of an artist pouring his unfiltered self out into his work--that's how you get melodramatic teenage tripe IMO. To me good art comes from a cohesive artistic environment, and artists that carefully hone their skill via revision, experiment, feedback, etc.---all the things that workshopping really magnifies.

Of course lots of folks disagree with me on this point, and if they'd rather be alone in the woods writing everything right off their sleeve, that's just a difference of opinion and it's alright with me


I can see some helpful truth to your comments, though it isn't reflective of my own, very positive, past experiences.

I guess I have two responses to appease these concerns:

1. when someone really has no talent, I always see them leave such a group--being told that your music simply isn't working to the point that you need to start over from scratch week after week tends to get them down. Or more drastically groups I've been in simply don't invite certain people back--you have to have a certain level of talent in the first place if people are going to invest time into developing you.

2. I am wholeheartedly and unwaveringly about creating a scene. Even if I wanted to simply support my own performances or band (which isn't really an ulterior motive), I would still focus almost entirely on creating a specific musical community because I feel that that's the best way to create a market for music that doesn't appeal to the people immediately around you. Creating a new scene via fostering community is the only way to make new and innovative music successful IMO. My experience is that you can only succeed in the preexisting area "market" if your work is heavily derivative of what is already popular. I'd rather just create a new market and keep things moving forward. --The area I'm in seems more or less like a blank slate for creating something new and I'm excited about it.

Imagine that there are only two country/southern rock cover bands, and two original highschool metal bands in your community, none particularly bad nor particularly excellent. You'd be doing everything you could to expand the local music scene, simply for the sake of having something else to go listen to on a friday night. Four bands (of which each pair sounds exactly the same) can be enjoyable for a bit, but can't carry the weight of the city's nightlife on their shoulders--it gets really boring.



You do point out issues I hadn't foreseen though:

I never thought of one person actually stealing another's material. I didn't figure this would happen since I figured basically no one involved would have professional aspirations and incentive to steal, but you're right, some people are dicks.

Is there any easy way around this?
and:

I'm not worried about the typical professional environment--who involved would actually end up in Nashville or LA or any big studio, etc. But you're right even the area politics of music are pretty hostile, full of rivalry and huge egos. I was hoping the group itself would be an alternative to that kind of thinking.

What can I do to shape the group so that people have to leave that kind of attitude at the door?

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by dullsilver_mike

You do point out issues I hadn't foreseen though:

I never thought of one person actually stealing another's material.
[...]
Is there any easy way around this?

Are you joking?

Theft of others' material is what the entire songwriting industry is based on. Big acts and major labels have people on salary who do nothing else but scour around looking for great tunes and hooks to rip off from unsuspecting amateurs.

Every wannabee does the same thing.

Theft of material is so reflexive I can't imagine anyone not doing it, even if they suppress the guilty knowledge from their conscious thoughts.

[dullsilver_mike]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

Are you joking?

Theft of others' material is what the entire songwriting industry is based on. Big acts and major labels have people on salary who do nothing else but scour around looking for great tunes and hooks to rip off from unsuspecting amateurs.

Every wannabee does the same thing.

Theft of material is so reflexive I can't imagine anyone not doing it, even if they suppress the guilty knowledge from their conscious thoughts.

I absolutely understand, but I think you took my quote our of context--I meant that didn't foresee anyone stealing material within this group, not in the music business as a whole. I have to reiterate that I'm in a rural area with a total population of about 100k. Based on population density alone, it wouldn't be financially sound to pay someone to go steal music around here. Beyond that, I seriously doubt any existing performers in the area are equipped to turn a stolen song into profit. If someone in a group here steals my song, what are they going to do other than play it at a bar for $20 every couple of weeks or record it in some basement studio then sell 30 or 40 copies to make back a fraction of their printing cost?

There's just not a lot to lose at this point, if that makes sense. While I'm pretty uneducated of the music business in general (and again really appreciate any advice) I think I'm reasonably suspicious of most shady types.

IF you're concerned with stealing style, I don't see the problem. It's an area group, they should come together to start developing a regional flavor--that's what makes a music scene consumable by the public.

But you raise another good point, since most experienced musicians are so ingrained with this "any form of collaboration will just end up screwing you over" mentality, I'll surely have a hard time drumming up any interest from anyone with experience.

Looks more and more like this is another good idea dead in an absolutely toxic environment.

[JohnMCA72]

Google "songwriter" along with "group", "association", & "workshop". Such things are going on all over.

JM

[dullsilver_mike]

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

Google "songwriter" along with "group", "association", & "workshop". Such things are going on all over.

JM

Yes, I understand how google works, I understand the basics of how a songwriting group works, I understand that there are many of such organizations but that there is in fact no such thing anywhere near my area.

I came to TB because I respect the musicians here and often find their experience very enlightening and helpful. I was hoping for some of their input on the practical aspects of actually managing and recruiting for such a group, as I'm not completely confident that I know everything about these things.

Am I really that far out that no one here can offer me any authentic advice--instead just telling me what's wrong with the idea and to go "google it"?

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by dullsilver_mike

Yes, I understand how google works, I understand the basics of how a songwriting group works, I understand that there are many of such organizations but that there is in fact no such thing anywhere near my area.

I came to TB because I respect the musicians here and often find their experience very enlightening and helpful. I was hoping for some of their input on the practical aspects of actually managing and recruiting for such a group, as I'm not completely confident that I know everything about these things.

Am I really that far out that no one here can offer me any authentic advice--instead just telling me what's wrong with the idea and to go "google it"?

My point wasn't that you might not know how to use google. My point was that you're not necessarily reinventing the wheel, such groups do exist, & you might look to some of them for your guidance & inspiration. Some of the other responses seemed to suggest that the whole idea is off-the-wall, which it's not. Plenty of others are doing it, just (apparently) nobody here.

JM

[dullsilver_mike]

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

My point wasn't that you might not know how to use google. My point was that you're not necessarily reinventing the wheel, such groups do exist, & you might look to some of them for your guidance & inspiration. Some of the other responses seemed to suggest that the whole idea is off-the-wall, which it's not. Plenty of others are doing it, just (apparently) nobody here.

JM

Sorry to misunderstand you before John, I do appreciate the sincere advice. I've been looking around quite a bit online and I'll continue to do so. Thanks.

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by dullsilver_mike

Sorry to misunderstand you before John, I do appreciate the sincere advice. I've been looking around quite a bit online and I'll continue to do so. Thanks.

That's OK.

I'm in a similar boat to you. What you're trying to do isn't out of line at all. This particular forum may not be a good source of the specific info. you're looking for, although it's great for what it is good at.

The people who are in songwriters' groups in other locations, I would say, are interested in helping others - otherwise, they probably wouldn't be involved in those groups. Since they're apparently already interested in helping local (to them) songwriters, they might also be interested in helping somebody in another area (such as you) get something similar going in your area. Some of them may have been involved in setting up their local songwriters' groups, & can be a huge help to you & your project.

Good luck, & keep posting here even if you don't find a lot of interest here. There's no telling who might come along later, & find your information valuable!

JM