Subbing For Free???

[ACalbass]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

You agreed to play the gig for drinks, so just play it. Forget all this crap about "deserving to be paid". You're a young guy starting out; as you said, it's an easy gig, so just do it and have fun. After all, did you have anything better to do that night?

This the worst advice you can get.
Getting paid when everyone else is is the standard,wouldn't you say?
And since when getting paid is crap,starter or veteran?
How are you going to get a career on music thinking like that?
You do everything the wrong way : you start getting paid,only then after you are settled you start giving freebies to whoever you want.


Ahh,I got it : you are the band leader of this band,right??

[Bassamatic]

You NEVER work for free unless it is a charity gig. If you don't feel that you have value, no one else will either. It is all about respect.

It was OK for food and drink, if that was what everyone got. But if the rest get paid, so do you.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by ACalbass

This the worst advice you can get.
Getting paid when everyone else is is the standard,wouldn't you say?
And since when getting paid is crap,starter or veteran?
How are you going to get a career on music thinking like that?
You do everything the wrong way : you start getting paid,only then after you are settled you start giving freebies to whoever you want.


Ahh,I got it : you are the band leader of this band,right??

He was asked to do a gig for free (+food and drinks) and he accepted - that's all there is to it. He says he learned that the band was getting paid, but so what? They might be getting peanuts for all he knows, and his drinks might be worth more his pay cut.

There's nothing wrong with doing gigs for free when you're starting out. I did quite a few of them, and while you might say it's "bad business", I've never had a day job since. You have to look ahead; a favour done now could mean a very good job in the future.

[Downunderwonder]

I did open mic for a few months for a few free beers with singer guitarist. Then did a few free beer gigs with his band who do energetic cover rock with two acoustic guitars drums and no bass. Great fun but they weren't hiring a bassist so I left them to it. A few months later the lead guitarist recruited me for a well paid jazz thing when I was playing my EUB at another open jam.

Putting yourself out there for free can have a payback for unknown players in a healthy band market.

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

I did open mic for a few months for a few free beers with singer guitarist. Then did a few free beer gigs with his band who do energetic cover rock with two acoustic guitars drums and no bass. Great fun but they weren't hiring a bassist so I left them to it. A few months later the lead guitarist recruited me for a well paid jazz thing when I was playing my EUB at another open jam.

Putting yourself out there for free can have a payback for unknown players in a healthy band market.

That's my point exactly, and the same thing happened with me. I would never do it now, but when I was a youngster, money was the last thing I cared about. I just wanted play in front of an audience as often as I could, and with as many different people as I could. As far as money goes, we're probably talking about pocket change anyway, so who cares? Eat, drink, play and be merry.

[baileyboy]

Originally Posted by bass81800

I have been getting out there and networking to try to find more gigs and play in better situations. As a result of this, I got a call from someone to sub for their gig. My first thoughts were that my efforts are starting to get results, and I will have the opportunity to play with a new group of musicians in great location. Was told no pay, just food and drink. I do not normally do free gigs, but, as I said, I see this as an opportunity.

Now I found out that the gig does pay, but I agreed to do this for no pay per conversation with the player who asked me to sub, because I was available, was happy to be called, and see this as a good opportunity to get out there. I will do the gig and give it my all, hope it goes well, will keep my mouth shut, and hope I get called again, but am not going to do this again for free.

What is you take on this?

I never, ever play for free unless it is a charity event of some kind. Each to his own.

[ChrisB2]

Originally Posted by bass81800

OP back here. A lot of good responses. Thanks!

OK, I accepted the gig, so I am doing it. The bass player called me, not the band leader. Lack of pay has nothing to do with the band leader or the band that will be at the gig. No prep involved, reading out of their books, know a lot of the rep already, short drive, and hoping to get on the band's sub list by doing a good job. Just a local restaurant gig, doubt if it is much pay anyway. Found out about pay because the band leader sent an email to everyone about checks. So, really, that does not preclude one of the checks being for me. Gig is this week, so will let all of you know how this plays out. At worse, I meet new musicians, expand my network, play a gig, hand out some cards, do one, and one only freebie, and have a nice meal. At best, I get paid, get on the sub list, and get called again for another gig with that group or another group the other members are in.

Once again another BM thread with way too little OP information and way too much speculation and e-chest beating by the audience.

Okay, this post helps... a little.... but OP, if you want to know, as you said, what our take would be on this you have to be more forthcoming with the details. Otherwise you get all this speculation and lack of good advice.

The more details you give the more specific and pertinent the advice will be, especially as you approach the heavier topics. And few topics on here are as heavy as playing for free.

So I would like to know much more detail about the original request for you to play including specific wording about pay, and more details about the email regarding checks.

But even with or without new details, or this last clarifying post, and with no information but the OP, my advice would have been to ASK THE BANDLEADER "w-t-f-?" Because something smells...... either something underhanded is going on or something weird happened.... and if you don't show some self-respect by asking for some answers, you risk being viewed as naive and easily used. Maybe it's all innocent and good but I would want to have some peace of mind and you obviously don't or you wouldn't have created this thread. The three question marks after the title affirm your incredulity... which is well founded.

If you want to work this gig for free, that's your business. But at least demonstrate to your associates that your BS filter works and you don't ignore it....

Good luck.

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by baileyboy

I never, ever play for free unless it is a charity event of some kind. Each to his own.

Even then, some "charity" events have substantial budgets for entertainment. Personally, my single best-paying gig every year is to run sound at a charity event. Staging, sound, lights, fencing, security, medics, porta-potties, dumpsters, etc. all get paid for. The suppliers of those products & services would laugh if they were asked to provide them gratis - & quickly go broke if they actually did. Yet the primary providers of the entertainment that contributes to the draw, that gets people to show up & drop their money in the buckets, are expected to donate?

Personally, I have enough respect for myself & my services that I expect to be paid more than the porta-potties.

[Kmonk]

Sounds like you were misled. Whether it was intentional or not doesn't matter. If the band is getting paid, you deserve to be paid.

[ACalbass]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

Sounds like you were misled. Whether it was intentional or not doesn't matter. If the band is getting paid, you deserve to be paid.

But it was already said it is "crap" to get paid.(not by me,though)
So,you are wrong and me too,apparently.

The truth behind all this is................
There are some points some people do not get :
WE ALL PLAY BECAUSE IT IS A PLEASURE,starter or veteran,we all enjoy playing.That is actually WHY we all play,not the money.

This doesn't mean you SHOULD NOT GET PAID WHEN EVERYONE ELSE IS.
PERIOD.

[Joe Nerve]

Well, if we're not being lownered or trolled here, we need more info. Otherwise I have to agree with the deal not being a deal once the new info was introduced.

I can understand the OPs reasons for doing a gig without pay, but what's the band's reason for not paying? I can't think of a single acceptable reason. I would't want to do any favors for any band that would even consider doing this. Well, maybe the who or the stones or something... but I don't think that's what's going on here. What's going on is we're either not getting the whole story, the true story, or someone is being a chump.

[RyanJD]

A pertinent question though:
What if there were others willing to sub for free if he would've requested a share of the pay?
The OP wants to get himself out there. He grabbed the opportunity, now they find out what he's made of and have him in their mind for future fill-ins.
If he does well and they know they can rely on him, they'll be willing to pay in the future. Or they should be at least, if they aren't idiots.

I'm inexperienced, but I probably would've done the same as the OP just getting into the local music scene.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by RyanJD

A pertinent question though:
What if there were others willing to sub for free if he would've requested a share of the pay?
The OP wants to get himself out there. He grabbed the opportunity, now they find out what he's made of and have him in their mind for future fill-ins.
If he does well and they know they can rely on him, they'll be willing to pay in the future. Or they should be at least, if they aren't idiots.

I'm inexperienced, but I probably would've done the same as the OP just getting into the local music scene.

Finding a gig with an established working band might be faster way of getting into the local music scene.

I'm not sure subbing is the method I would chose .

Blue

[ACalbass]

Originally Posted by RyanJD

A pertinent question though:
What if there were others willing to sub for free if he would've requested a share of the pay?
The OP wants to get himself out there. He grabbed the opportunity, now they find out what he's made of and have him in their mind for future fill-ins.
If he does well and they know they can rely on him, they'll be willing to pay in the future. Or they should be at least, if they aren't idiots.

I'm inexperienced, but I probably would've done the same as the OP just getting into the local music scene.

I understand your logic,but in a great scale of things,this is the same concept of "internship" in another thread.
Getting musicians for free.
You are going to find hundred of people that want to "come out",and would do anything to get there.
But the fact you would play for free,doesn't imply people should abuse you.
You can see it the other way too : nobody else would play for free,this is why they asked the OP,knowing of his willingness.

Problem is that building this grounds,you won't have a future for your career,in the long run,with more and more people doing this,musicians will have no value.

An example : China restricted many years ago parents to have only one children,to control population.
Now they find out years later the consequence of this rule is that population is getting older and older,youngsters are scarce.
No work force.
What they do? : they propose parents to have more children.
Meaning the rule was counterproductive in the long run.


The moral of all this is : you keep playing for free,for exposure,you will build a name maybe,but won't have a chance to build a career,to make a living of your talent, because there won't be a market for it : always someone else will play for free.

This is NOT the market you want to be in,this will not buy your instruments,your strings,your amp,your car,your house,your children won't be going to college,and so on

But of course,people that has no purpose playing an instrument,that has no intention to live of their talent do not really care what the future holds.

I am totally against playing for free when everyone else is getting paid,as explained by the OP.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by MarkMgibson

He was asked to do a gig for free (+food and drinks) and he accepted - that's all there is to it. He says he learned that the band was getting paid, but so what? They might be getting peanuts for all he knows, and his drinks might be worth more

We still don't know who told him about the pay.

Blue

[bass81800]

OP here. Gig went fine, much positive feedback for my playing. Most of the players also are in other bands. So, I am strongly guessing I will get called again. and probably for other situations. No, none of the members did get paid, outside of a tip jar, so my other communication was incorrect or I misread an email. Anyway, glad I did this, but probably not again for free. Its too bad these very good players have settled for free. After all, they did bring in a lot of business to the restaurant.

[bluewine]

Originally Posted by bass81800

OP here. Gig went fine, much positive feedback for my playing. Most of the players also are in other bands. So, I am strongly guessing I will get called again. and probably for other situations. No, none of the members did get paid, outside of a tip jar, so my other communication was incorrect or I misread an email. Anyway, glad I did this, but probably not again for free. Its too bad these very good players have settled for free. After all, they did bring in a lot of business to the restaurant.

Cool,

However, it's sad to hear about good musicians providing a service to a restaurant for free.

Shame on the owners, they walk away from the evening with a nice bottom line figure in the black. The musicians walk away with nothing.

Blue

[MarkMgibson]

I'm glad it all worked out, and you may very well get some more gigs (paid ones) down the track. The email thing did sound a bit strange, and I'm glad they weren't being dishonest with you. You got to play with some good musicians, you obviously made a good impression, and in the long run, that can only be good for you.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by bluewine

Finding a gig with an established working band might be faster way of getting into the local music scene.

I'm not sure subbing is the method I would chose .

Blue

+1

The approach to using sub work to get a steady gig is a bit backwards. You get sub work by having a good reputation. You get a good reputation by being established and having a proven track record. Best way to get that proven track record? Play in an established band. Subbing is something that requires a lot of skill to do well, and unless I'm up against the wall, I'm not going to hire an unproven sub that nobody's heard of.

[the yeti]

Originally Posted by trevcda

Agreed. Fulfill your end of the deal, as you agreed to, but make the band leader, and absolutely no one else, aware of your understanding of the situation. Hopefully he will either clarify the situation and/or make it right. That way you don't look like a chump and now he can worry about his reputation and his methods for hiring sidemen. Do not go moping about the event telling your tale of woe to anyone who will listen. This is between you and the band leader and whoever "hired" you to fill in. Anything less than this and you look like a whiner and very unprofessional.

yep.