substitute drummer is killing us...

baileyboy · #1 05-10-2012, 01:29 AM

I've been playing with this rock band for about 5 months, we've had several gigs, things are coming together really well, crowds like us, blah, blah, blah...

To the point, our drummer is in high demand and plays with several bands, first come, first serve. The other day we had this substitute drummer they've used in the past sit in. This guy just does not have the chops, timing is off, just another yahoo who thinks he's John Bonham. It's really frustrating to witness all the tunes we were nailing go to hell with this guy. Evidently, they've used him in the past to sub, which is hard for me to fathom. The reason this is of concern is because he will be subbing for us quite a bit this summer, as the other drummer has booked in advance several other gigs.

I'm the newbie in this band so have not said a word yet. We have a gig this weekend and I'm thinking if this goes poorly I will have a chat with the others and tell them my thoughts. I suspect the crappy drummer is a friend of theirs, so I don't want to insult them. On the other hand, I don't want to embarrass myself in front of people I know playing with this guy.

Any thoughts on how to proceed without burning bridges? Thanks.

Marginal Tom · #2 05-10-2012, 01:59 AM

Ask your bandleader (or bandmates, if there is no leader) whether you should play in time or follow the drummer. If they say play in time, then either the drummer will follow you or his timing issues will be obvious to everyone. If they say follow the drummer, try it and see how it goes. If it's as bad as you think, ask them to get a substitute bassist whenever they use that drummer.

MysticMichael · #3 05-10-2012, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baileyboy

Any thoughts on how to proceed without burning bridges? Thanks.

I don't see how you tip-toe around this matter without being ineffective. You either come out and tell them how you feel about the sub, or you don't. If you do, they take it the way they take it. If you don't, you're doomed to continue playing with Mr. Shaky Chops.

Seriously, if he's as bad as you say he is - and IF these guys are any kind of decent musicians - they should already be well aware of the problem. If they are aware of it, but continue to play with the guy, that's a problem of terrible judgement. If they can't even tell how bad he is, that's a problem of deficient musicianship. Either way, laying back and continuing to say nothing amounts to a tacit acceptance of the status quo.

Your move...

MM

Nakedfish · #4 05-10-2012, 02:22 AM

I agree with MM. You need to talk with the other band members.

lowfreq33 · #5 05-10-2012, 02:49 AM

Bite your tongue. You're the new guy, things can't always be perfect. If they ask you, be honest. But be aware that sometimes you just have to cover the gigs.

muljoe · #6 05-10-2012, 03:01 AM

If it is that bad, I would have the band cancel all the gigs the real drummer cannot make…especially if you are an original band. I think a lot of people would rather see a super tight band that kills it less often than an inconsistent band every week or two. Even if you only play out once every month or two, I think it would be better to put together really solid shows.

I might be alone in my opinion here...I'm interested if anyone else would think like this.

MysticMichael · #7 05-10-2012, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muljoe

I might be alone in my opinion here...I'm interested if anyone else would think like this.

I agree. To me, a band that continues to play with a player who can't cut it would be a major red flag - be he a member or only a sub. If the guy is bad enough to be interfering with the quality of the music, then it very seriously calls into question the judgement of whoever hired him in the first place.

Whether they can discern his "suckitude" and don't care, or they simply can't tell the difference between a good drummer and a bad one, the bottom line is the same - the groove suffers. That much is a no-brainer.

Personally, if I were in a band situation in which I felt constrained from offering my input on any issue in which the quality of the music was in peril, in which I was made to feel that I had to walk on eggshells lest I be accused of "rocking the boat", that's not a boat I'd want to continue to ride. That sounds WAY too much like the dysfunctional, dishonest, BS office politics of the day job world. *shudder*

MM

tycobb73 · #8 05-10-2012, 05:20 AM

In my band once you're in you're in and I expect you to speak up right away if you see an issue. You can do it nicely.

mellowinman · #9 05-10-2012, 05:56 AM

Your reputation will suffer greatly, as a band, if you play out with a drummer who's bad. The audience will sour quickly on bad rhythm. Been there; done that.

Joe Nerve · #10 05-10-2012, 06:10 AM

I agree with everything everyone said here.

Meaning, I don't think there's any right or wrong answer regarding how you should handle it. If there is, the only one I can think of is, with tact.

I've been in your position. I play in a lot of bands, with a lot of drummers. I play for a solo artist now who pretty much uses a different drummer for every gig. Thankfully in this situation they're all pros. But I've played with the worse. And trust me when I say that. I feel I've learned a lot from it though.

Most important thing I think I learned is that in many (not all) cases it doesn't matter how great the drummer is. It matters the vibe they bring to the gig, and whether or not people are being entertained. Mr. super tight might bring nothing more to the gig than being super tightt, and to a bass player who has him under a microscope, that is of course the most important thing. To the rest of the band however, it might not even be noticable. That goes triple for the audience. We have to lock in with the drummer, so we're ultra sensitive to what's going on there. Sucks that they can really make or break us, but sometimes we have to check our ego at the door and go with the flow of what the rest of the band wants. If I'm playing with an awesomely tight drummer, I can sound totally bad ass. Throw me (or anyone) in with a drummer who's timing sucks, and it becomes impossible to do that. Best I think you can do is figure out how to make it work, and look like you're having fun.

As for playing with the drummer or keeping time I always do my best to keep with the drummer, although I'm not sure that's always the best way to go. I do it because it keeps me entertained and I feel it's the best listening, locking in practice I can get.

The only thing I can say for absolute sure here is that if you're doing original music, and have any plans of recording - then this guy has to go. A crappy drummer can pull off a live show, but they'll wind up wasting you a fortune in the studio, and possibly not even get the job done. At least not without an top notch engineer.

DWBass · #11 05-10-2012, 06:18 AM

are there no other drummers available? why do they 'have' to use this guy? if he's that bad, others will notice and it could cost you guys gigs! maybe you can use a neutral observer who can say something to the leader.

bluewine · #12 05-10-2012, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baileyboy

I've been playing with this rock band for about 5 months, we've had several gigs, things are coming together really well, crowds like us, blah, blah, blah...

To the point, our drummer is in high demand and plays with several bands, first come, first serve. The other day we had this substitute drummer they've used in the past sit in.

Interesting, almost all TBers have been advocates of playing in more than one band and doing sub work.

This seems to be an example of how it can come back to bite a band.

For some not all, because I know there are some guys that don't want to be in a band because free lancing and subbing is more lucrative.

If ( and this would never happen) I had a strong established working band and I was recruiting a player I would give low priority to guys playing in multiple bands no matter how good they were.

Blue

Ewo · #13 05-10-2012, 08:18 AM

When you're onstage and the drummer messes up the groove, what do the other band members do? Do they keep good time, and let the drummer come back to the groove? Or do they go to where the drummer is?

My default, in a situation where somebody's time is janky, is to keep good time and hope they come back to the groove.

Sub300Hertz · #14 05-10-2012, 08:57 AM

like Mellowinman said, the bad drumming is gonna be spotted by the audience right away. Avoid it like hell!

Nakedfish · #15 05-10-2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewo

My default, in a situation where somebody's time is janky, is to keep good time and hope they come back to the groove.

I do that with drummers whose playing I am unfamiliar with, but with drummer's I know I cut em a little slack on slow fills etc. I just roll with it and watch and listen like a hawk!

Bassbubble11 · #16 05-10-2012, 09:05 AM

I wonder how competent the other players in the band are if they can't tell how bad the drummer is. I mean you are the only one who realizes it? And if the guy is a friend and they don't care that he can't play in time then I would find another gig. That's just me.

RichardCranium · #17 05-10-2012, 10:29 AM

Some guys just don't realize they aren't up to it and some bandmates don't have enough of a fine-tuned ear to hear it. My drummer is oblivious to the fact that his playing has no groove and also plays way behind the beat. My guitar player says he can't tell it sounds fine to him but it affects me and my playing.

Factor88 · #18 05-10-2012, 12:14 PM

OK, Follow me on this. You said (and I paraphrase, let me know if I get anything wrong):

1) Band is doing well and has gigs

2) Band has used the drummer in the past as a sub

So why is it a given that it will be some musical disaster if the guy subs in the future? If this guy was so terrible in the past, one would think it had some affect on the band's ability to get/retain gigs. Did it?

bluewine · #19 05-10-2012, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor88

OK, Follow me on this. You said (and I paraphrase, let me know if I get anything wrong):

1) Band is doing well and has gigs

2) Band has used the drummer in the past as a sub

So why is it a given that it will be some musical disaster if the guy subs in the future? If this guy was so terrible in the past, one would think it had some affect on the band's ability to get/retain gigs. Did it?

There are hundreds of local bands that are not good, but their good at getting and retaining gigs.

Blue

LiquidMidnight · #20 05-10-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluewine

Interesting, almost all TBers have been advocates of playing in more than one band and doing sub work.

This seems to be an example of how it can come back to bite a band.

+1

Which leads me to my advice...

1. Fire the official drummer. If he can't commit to gigs, then all of the chops in the world don't matter.

2. Ditch the crappy sub and find someone who can play and commit to take over the drum throne.