TB brothers, I need your help, please.

[Dave Muscato]

Hey folks,

I need advice, and I know that a lot of folks here have plenty of experience or just plain good sense (or both!). If you have a few minutes, I would really appreciate your thoughts. I'm having a serious problem with my band and am considering quitting.

"Just the facts, ma'am..."

- 3-piece power trio, lead singer/guitarist writes all the songs. Drummer (Jake) and I are 24; singer/guitarist (Church) is 20
- Been together 4 years, but current drummer has only been with us the last 8 months
- We have 1 album out, released March '07
- We play only original material, not a cover band
- Aside from the band, I'm a part-time student and session player, Jake works full-time and is also a part-time student, Church works full time and is not in school
- The three of us live together, rehearse 2-3x/week, have band meetings every Sunday
- We play out about once/month, only locally but we want to play/travel more
- About 100-200 local fans (Columbia population ~100k)
- Draw ~30-80 depending on the circumstances

"Ay, there's the rub..."

Our last album (released March '07, recorded summer '06) cost $3k for tracking/mixing/mastering, which we were to split 3 ways. We had already committed to the studio time when our old drummer announced that he was moving away, and although he offered to appear on the recordings, he said he no longer wished to contribute 1/3 of the recording costs, as he was leaving the band at the end of the summer.

Church (guitarist/singer) had agreed to get a summer job (he was still in school at the time) to pay for his $1k share, but for whatever reason, didn't follow through with that.

So when it came time to record, I was on the hook for the entire 3 grand. I wasn't happy about it, but didn't feel like I had much of a choice, so I paid it myself with my credit card (stupid, stupid, stupid). I made it clear to Church that I was *not* paying for the pressing, since I paid for the recording in full, and it would be his responsibility to come up with the money for that.

We weren't gigging, because we lacked a drummer, so the band was more or less on-hold until Church came up with the money for the pressing.

Fast forward 8 months (March '07), still no money for the pressing from Church, no gigs in between, when we are offered an opening spot for a decent show, a CD-release party for another local band.

I was tired of sitting on the masters with no return on my $3k in sight, so I asked an old drummer friend (Jake) if, for $50, he would fill in on drums for the gig, and we worked it out with the other local band so that it was a dual CD-release party, for both our bands. I put up another $700 to have a short run of 110 CDs pressed, and the dual CD-release show went pretty well. Shortly after, we asked Jake to officially join our band, and a few months later, the 3 of us moved in together.

Fast forward 11 months to the present. We've played perhaps a dozen shows in all this time. We have sold about 60 CDs and given away the rest of the initial run of 110 for promotional purposes, so we are now out of CDs to sell.

"Fear not for the future, weep not for the past..."

I have told Church that, again, I am not paying for the pressing. I paid out-of-pocket for the recording and the first pressing, and money from gigs has barely covered our costs (website, gas, flyers/posters, business cards, booking promokits, equipment rentals... - we're an original band playing once a month without a huge following; we usually gross ~$50-100 if we're lucky!).

Church has agreed to repay me $50-150 from each paycheck (twice/month) toward his share of the band expenses, since he didn't chip in up-front. The three of us agreed that Jake should not be responsible for any of the costs of our last album, since he wasn't on it, and in turn, he would not get any of the proceeds from it. As you can imagine, Jake is pretty anxious to record a new album (with him on it) so we can start pushing that one, instead.

In reality, Church has repaid me less than $525 combined (out of his bi-weekly paychecks) over the last 6 months, a far cry short of his roughly $2k share. Church is not that motivated to book paying shows because all of the money goes to me, and Jake is not that excited about playing out without a CD (with him on it) to sell, so I am the only one working to book us any gigs.

I also do the website, handle the finances/pay the bills, and I also own 80% of the equipment (we rehearse completely through headphones with a Roland TD-6SXT e-drum kit, a Line6 POD, a Line6 Bass POD, all into a Presonus Firepod 10, then into a 4-channel headphone preamp, then into 3 sets of Sony studio monitor headphones and a Zoom H2 recorder, all of which I paid for... I also paid for the PA, which consists of 2x JBL Eon 15s and a Mackie VLZ-1604 board, a Furman power conditioner, in addition to my own live bass rig... I even paid for Church's guitar cab when he needed a new one; that is part of the money he owes me). I also own the van, the only vehicle between the three of us big enough to hold our gear for gigs.

I am not a record label. I have no desire to financially support an entire band out-of-pocket, especially a band that is not gigging except when I book a show. I want to play bass and pay my bills and maybe have some money left over for myself. I'm tired of doing all the work. The only thing I feel like I don't do is write the songs. Twice in the last two weeks we've canceled practice because Church didn't even show up.

So, if you're still with me (and if you are, thank you for your patience!), here's my question:

I am considering moving to Nashville to study elec. bass & music business at Belmont. Church is actually considering moving there, as well (although Jake doesn't want to move and likely won't). If I go, it will be ~August, in time for the fall semester.

Should I give this band 6 more months? Should I try to keep it going after Church and I move to Nashville, and find a new drummer? Should I see the money I've put in thus far as a sunk cost and just quit now, and join/start a cover band and make some money for the next 6 months before I move?

Any thoughts, opinions, advice, criticisms, comments, or derisions are appreciated.

Thank you,

[Big Hungry]

Sounds to me like you have made it a hell of a lot further than most of the musicians on this forum. I think your band is pretty good. Do you like playing your music or are you ready to move on? Thats really what I would base my decision on. Am I bored yet?

[Dave Muscato]

I love our music. It tears me up to think of leaving this band... that is why I'm stuck it out for so long. I didn't even get into some of the other stumbling blocks we've had along the way (a previous drummer died, an old rhythm guitarist - back when we were a 5-piece - stole our $2k cargo trailer [that yes, I paid for!])... The two other guys in the current line-up are my two best friends and I love them to pieces. I've known Jake for 18 years. But, that doesn't mean they are good business partners, especially Church (who is terrible at managing money), or that this band has the potential to be successful as an indie business. Church makes more than I do; it makes no sense that I'm able to put more toward reducing this credit card debt each month than he is... He is simply not committed.

We play off each other well and I love performing with these guys. On stage, I have some of the best experiences of my life. But unfortunately, playing well together and putting on a good show do not a successful career as a pro musician make. There are 24 hours in a day and only 3 of them are spent on stage... it's the other 21 that are doing me in. Argh!

[Big Hungry]

Sounds like a tough situation. Kinda hard to leave unmotivated band mates with whom you make great music.

[gjsven]

Been there, done that, playing in a new band now. It's not a fun situation to be in but there's some things you can do to move towards the best outcome.

Some advice from my experience:

• Tell Church and Jake exactly how you feel and give them ONE chance to improve.
• Explain to them that if you leave it will be for business reasons, not friendship reasons. If they don't understand the difference they aren't your friends.
• Give Church a deadline for repaying debts - and don't fund unreliable people (learned this the hard way myself)! Make it clear that the debt still stands if you leave the band - again if he doesn't understand this he's a sponge, not a friend. Friends repay their debts to friends, no exceptions.
• If things don't improve markedly and immediately, leave and start something new. It's not fair of them to waste your time and potential and it can be sooo soul destroying to try and carry a band which just isn't interested in trying.

While it can be hard to move on from a band which made great music, ultimately the music you've made can never be taken away from you. You'll make far more great music in the future with a new and motivated bunch of musos, and for that reason it's not worth risking your financial and mental health with unmotivated people!

[Lebowsky]

+1 to gjsven

sit them down and explain the situation to them and how you feel exactly like you did in your original post

[Dave Muscato]

We had a band meeting covering a lot of this about two weeks ago; I actually wrote up an 11-page thing detailing exactly what I saw as all our problems, and what, specifically, I thought we should do to fix them. The meeting was cut short after 10 minutes because the other two guys felt that we weren't getting anywhere; Jake went so far as to say, "Yeah, yeah, the band owes Dave money; next" as I was going through the points to discuss (among them, being late/not showing up for rehearsals, recording our next album, possibly relocating to Nashville, etc), then the guys went back to playing video games. I printed out copies of the 11-page thing for each of them, but neither of them took their copies or read them at all as far as I know, and we certainly didn't go through it together. I should just take a hint, huh?

Another thing that is not really related, but just overall indicates how things are going... Jake's 24th birthday was in October, and we threw a surprise party for him and invited a bunch of his friends over, complete with a... phallic cake, presents, etc. In December, we threw a surprise party for Church's birthday, complete with an '80s theme, costumes, etc. My own birthday was about two weeks ago, and I know I shouldn't "expect" anything, but I am disappointed that Church did not even say happy birthday to me, and Jake only said it by posting on my Facebook wall (we are all roommates, remember). It's not that I wanted a surprise party or presents specifically, but it would have made me feel a little better about all of this if they at least made an effort. It's really not that big a deal in the big picture, but it made me realize that I care a lot more about them than they care about me... maybe we aren't as good of friends as I thought, you know?

[Freddels]

You may love these guys but it doesn't sound like they have the same feelings about you. As far as the guitar cab, I think it's yours (you bought it). The guitar player needs to understand that he owes you $X amount of money and he needs to make arrangements to pay you.

Weren't you the one that told a story of being hired by some kids to record and after recording they wanted you to pay "your share" of the costs and you basically had them give you some equipment (a mic maybe) for payment? If so, then perhaps the guitar player will be giving you a guitar or two.

These two don't seem as motivated as you. Unless you want to continue to bankroll them, I'd suggest getting out.

[Deacon_Blues]

If Church really makes more money than you, and you still have paid for almost everything, I don't see why he couldn't go to the bank and get a loan of the remaining $1,5k. He really needs to grow up and start to take responsibilities. Make him take this loan within a couple of weeks, otherwise quit. That will hopefully teach him how things work in real life. You can't leave your bill unpaid without negative consequences...

EDIT: Even if you'd quit, he still owes you the money....

[::::BASSIST::::]

In short, quit. They dont have the passion for it that you do. When someone plunks their money down it shows they are serious beyond words.

Finacially, I guess you have to ask yourself if 'potentially' getting your money back is worth wrecking the friendship, because if you press the money thing chances are it will either ruin the friendship or bring it to a place that 'just isnt what it used to be.' Thats your call, for sure.

I would take the time to join an existing cover band who needs a bassist and try to re-coup some of your losses before heading to Nashville. Aside from that, I'd say its a vey expensive lesson learned. Never rely on anybody when it comes to money unless your'e willing to risk what you put into it. Personally, I dont make a move unless the others are at the exact point that I am. Unfortunately, promises count for nothing.

Hard as it may be, try not to let this experience sour your passion for music. There are many kinds of people out there and many musicians who are a joy to play with AS WELL as being top-notch people. Why settle for less than what you want?

I wish you the best.

[Chebass88]

Sorry to hear about your situation. Here is my advice.

1. Do everything you can to get your credit card debt down. This will help you in the long run, and will make your available credit look better as well as save you interest money.

2. Since you paid for the masters, they belong to you. There is no dispute about this - you certainly have credit card records to prove it. If you want to pay for another pressing, pay for it. If you want to relocate & take them with you, you are certainly entitled to do this.

3. If possible, try to separate your friendships from your professional activities. It sounds like you are playing as a primary source of income, so treat it that way. You can work with friends or family, but occasionally, business decisions must be made. Friendships and family can really muck these up.

4. Relocation will not solve your issues. It will solve the temporary issues of your current band, but I predict that you'll be in the same situation within a couple years.

5. NO CHARITY!!! If you pay for more things than your bandmates do, you are giving charity (for which you'll never get a payback, it sounds like), or promoting yourself as a musician (who just happens to have to boneheads to accompany him). For every amount of money you put into anything - the project, rent, CDs, the van, etc. - EXPECT A FAIR EXCHANGE!!! Anything less is an imbalance & unsustainable.

Hope this helps - these are lessons I had to learn personally - when I let my younger siblings stay at my apartment rent-free. (ended up being equivalent to $14,000 in "lost" rent, over 2.5 years) They never cleaned, my bass room became a bedroom, etc. Never again.

imp

[matrok]

Gotta say you need to move on. They are not on the same page as you. I'll bet the drummer would feel different if he was out the dough.

[makaky]

You are young and you have alot of things ahead of you.

My advice is go study your passion.


One thing my old man always told me is:

I had a friend, i made him credit, i lost my friend

[rduckwor]

Originally Posted by Chebass88

Sorry to hear about your situation. Here is my advice.

1. Do everything you can to get your credit card debt down. This will help you in the long run, and will make your available credit look better as well as save you interest money.

2. Since you paid for the masters, they belong to you. There is no dispute about this - you certainly have credit card records to prove it. If you want to pay for another pressing, pay for it. If you want to relocate & take them with you, you are certainly entitled to do this.

3. If possible, try to separate your friendships from your professional activities. It sounds like you are playing as a primary source of income, so treat it that way. You can work with friends or family, but occasionally, business decisions must be made. Friendships and family can really muck these up.

4. Relocation will not solve your issues. It will solve the temporary issues of your current band, but I predict that you'll be in the same situation within a couple years.

5. NO CHARITY!!! If you pay for more things than your bandmates do, you are giving charity (for which you'll never get a payback, it sounds like), or promoting yourself as a musician (who just happens to have to boneheads to accompany him). For every amount of money you put into anything - the project, rent, CDs, the van, etc. - EXPECT A FAIR EXCHANGE!!! Anything less is an imbalance & unsustainable.

Hope this helps - these are lessons I had to learn personally - when I let my younger siblings stay at my apartment rent-free. (ended up being equivalent to $14,000 in "lost" rent, over 2.5 years) They never cleaned, my bass room became a bedroom, etc. Never again.

imp

I agree with Cheebass. With a couple of additions:

1. Make sure that the expenses you have incurred - ALL the expenses, are utilized to off set income taxes both Federal and State. They are legitimate business expenses for a working musician.

2. Take the masters and leave. Go to Nashville if you wish. Plenty of pickers up here to hook up with. These guys are way too close for business partners (living together, etc). The pain of separation and loss is short lived. Remember, all musicians are business men also. At least the surviving musicians.


Good Luck

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by Chebass88

Sorry to hear about your situation. Here is my advice...

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Chebass88

1. Do everything you can to get your credit card debt down. This will help you in the long run, and will make your available credit look better as well as save you interest money.

Believe me, I am! Absolutely every cent I have left after paying my rent and utilities each month goes to my credit card, and then I pay for my gas, food, etc out of that. My credit card interest is calculated based on the average daily balance, so I put all my money toward my balance as soon as I get it, and pay my bills from there.

Part of the reason I'm frustrated is that I haven't bought a CD or gone out to a restaurant or been to a concert in a very long time, because I know just how much interest I'm paying on this debt, and how it's affecting my credit score. At the same time, Church (who makes more than I do) tells me he is 1) giving me every cent he can spare, which so far has averaged <$90/month and 2) buying video games, taking his girlfriend out, he even bought a new guitar and a $200 Whammy pedal... blah

Originally Posted by Chebass88

2. Since you paid for the masters, they belong to you. There is no dispute about this - you certainly have credit card records to prove it. If you want to pay for another pressing, pay for it. If you want to relocate & take them with you, you are certainly entitled to do this.

Maybe so, but they're not worth anything without the band together and gigging. I don't think I could realistically convince anyone to buy pressed copies of recordings from a defunct band, as the former bassist. Church could probably do that if he left the band and owned the masters, considering he's the lead singer/lead guitarist/chief songwriter, if he started a new band, and I'd much rather sell the masters to him for pennies on the dollar and get some of my money back rather than sit on them. It wouldn't be worth it for me to press them, just to be realistic as far as how many I could sell on my own, without Church fronting us.

Originally Posted by Chebass88

3. If possible, try to separate your friendships from your professional activities. It sounds like you are playing as a primary source of income, so treat it that way. You can work with friends or family, but occasionally, business decisions must be made. Friendships and family can really muck these up.

I'm starting to understand the truth to this. Man, it's hard to untangle yourself from these types of situations without the whole thing ending up in bitterness all around, but I think that you are right, I just have to figure out how to separate them, haha.

Originally Posted by Chebass88

4. Relocation will not solve your issues. It will solve the temporary issues of your current band, but I predict that you'll be in the same situation within a couple years.

The relocation is just because I want to go to music school. I will likely be doing this whether or not I leave the band - Church is also relocating, to attend the same school. Whether we continue working together or not once we get to Nashville is pretty much up to me. You're right, though, if I join another band without resolving how this happened in the first place, I will be in the same boat a few years from now with another group of guys... argh. And if I don't join another band - if Church and I continue working together, and just find a new drummer once we get to Nville - I will have the same problems there as I do here, unless I resolve them now.

Originally Posted by Chebass88

5. NO CHARITY!!! If you pay for more things than your bandmates do, you are giving charity (for which you'll never get a payback, it sounds like), or promoting yourself as a musician (who just happens to have to boneheads to accompany him). For every amount of money you put into anything - the project, rent, CDs, the van, etc. - EXPECT A FAIR EXCHANGE!!! Anything less is an imbalance & unsustainable.

We have talked about this as a band before, but the fact is, I'm the only one who is actually willing to put any money into this band. They both say that they are willing, but when it comes time to pony up, nobody but me has actually done so. I do expect a fair exchange - I paid for the first pressing, so Church should pay for the second pressing, and he has agreed to this, also. The problem is, Church is terrible at managing money, and we are in the same situation now as we were in when it was time for him to pony up for the initial pressing: He didn't have the money, he was "unable" to save the money, so we sat around going nowhere until I finally gave in and said, "This is stupid; I'll just pay for it [the initial pressing] so we can at least make some attempt to recover the cost of the recording." Last time I waited 8 months for him to come up with the money. I learned my lesson - he's not going to contribute, despite his agreeing that he ought to.

[agreatheight]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

We had a band meeting covering a lot of this about two weeks ago; I actually wrote up an 11-page thing detailing exactly what I saw as all our problems, and what, specifically, I thought we should do to fix them. The meeting was cut short after 10 minutes because the other two guys felt that we weren't getting anywhere; Jake went so far as to say, "Yeah, yeah, the band owes Dave money; next" as I was going through the points to discuss (among them, being late/not showing up for rehearsals, recording our next album, possibly relocating to Nashville, etc), then the guys went back to playing video games. I printed out copies of the 11-page thing for each of them, but neither of them took their copies or read them at all as far as I know, and we certainly didn't go through it together. I should just take a hint, huh?

Yeah.

I have been through a similar ordeal when I was younger; got left holding almost 700 CDs I paid for (most of recording, all of pressing) - my band broke up 1 month after CD release. Looking back it was a learning experience. I learned that motivation is not universal, neither is responsibility. I no longer play with other people permanently on original recordings. I limit other people's input (and therefore their responsibility) on my stuff, and my input on other peoples stuff. Sadly, I am much happier this way. I have always thought that the perfect band would be indiviuals making equal contributions sharing equal responsibility and reaping equal rewards. I stopped believing in this a few years ago, I don't think it will happen for me. It's OK really, it just took adjustment in my way of thinking. Now, I am more clear about what I want from each project, I comparmentalize my emotions and effort, and I do things to make myself happy. To be honest, lately I have been mostly working on my own. I get more done and its much closer to what I was looking to do in the first place. I never feel used or let down, and I am learning that I can do more than I ever thought.

I do play in a cover band, but it's a cover band - fun for me, nothing more. It could end tomorrow and I would just find a new one.

Best of luck!

[Lebowsky]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I should just take a hint, huh?

sadly, it would seem so, yeah

[Guiseppe]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

...Jake went so far as to say, "Yeah, yeah, the band owes Dave money; next" as I was going through the points to discuss (among them, being late/not showing up for rehearsals, recording our next album, possibly relocating to Nashville, etc), then the guys went back to playing video games. I printed out copies of the 11-page thing for each of them, but neither of them took their copies or read them at all as far as I know, and we certainly didn't go through it together. I should just take a hint, huh?

Sounds all the world (to me) that you're being blown off. Hate to say it, but it sounds like a one-way loyalty. The whole "Yeah, yeah, the band owes Dave money" speil was inconsiderate, and completely ignores the fact that he gave you his word to repay the debt he agreed to.

I've never been in the situation, but I think that if I ever am I'm going to make sure I get it all written down on paper. That way, even if I HAVE to take something to court (which it sounds like you may have to do in order to be repaid), I'll have supporting documentation.

[jgroh]

I agree with what most of the others are saying. I was there (ok not the money part...I didnt get stuck holding the bag), but at one point had to make a decision to leave something I thought had so much potential.

I played with an incredible drummer and he and I were the main constants in a band we started. We could hit the same fill if we were in different rooms. People who heard us together were like, wow. We were, I thought, good friends on top of it. However, as I later found out and seems like you are too, he wasnt going to put in the same effort and even though I held on until end, it had to end. That was probably 12-13 years ago.

Think of what money problems you would have if you guys were making some decent money! My guess is the singer would be demanding a big cut and think of the stress to go along with that one! Its not easy, but un-entangle yourself as you see fit and move on. You will need to do it at some point anyway whether you like it or not, sorry

[bottomzone]

It is very obvious that you are very passionate, dedicated and committed regarding the band and the music. It is painfully obvious that your band mates are none of the above. Some of the musicians at my church formed an instrumental jazz/gospel group about 3 years ago. We were really starting to gel and evolve, but when our keyboard player-who is an absoultely phenomenal musician-had trouble committing to rehearsals and eventually gigs, we had a heart-to-heart talk as a group about commitment. In the end, the keyboard player abruptly left the group. We are still in the process of replacing him, which has been tough. As difficult as it may be, I believe that it is time to move on. You are beating the proverbial dead horse and it is high time to find a new one! I will keep you in my prayers!


A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!