Tips for optimizing your band's live sound

mambo4 · #1 02-01-2008, 11:23 AM

What habits should a band try to develop, in rehearsal or onstage, to maximize its live sound? (pop/rock context)

I've been playing out for years now, and I've noticed some bands just sound in a different league at gigs. I'm not talking about musical technique: some are playing simple, unchallenging stuff. But all the other aspects of the live sound are great: The mix, the balance of sonic spectrum, the tightness.

Beyond the musical technique needed to execute our parts, what can we do to push our live sound into the next level?

We already:
-record every practice
-try to keep the band volume behind the vocals (a constant challenge)

what tips/tricks/life lessons can you folks add?

**baba** · #2 02-01-2008, 11:29 AM

Get a regular soundman. Pay him what he's worth. Get a nice PA for shows where it is not provided.

Then concentrate on the music and the soundman will take care of what it sounds like out front.

Also, how do you know what it sounds like out front when you are on the stage? Maybe you sound fine.

bradjonesbass · #3 02-01-2008, 11:53 AM

Turn down the stage volume. period. Get a quality pa for shows where it's needed. If you can't afford to pay a soundman every show, find an FOB (friend of the band) you can trust and ask him to adjust the board for you. Set up an hour or more before the gig, tell everyone to be silent. Start with drums (mic'd or not), then add bass, make sure the bass and the drums are well balanced and the volume isn't going to kill any attendees at the night's festivities before doing any other adjustments. Next have your keyboard player join in the fray and get him mixed in to a point where his parts are clearly audible without overpowering the drums-n-bass, now mix in your rhythm guitarist - e.q. is of utmost importance here, make sure his e.q. is emphasizing the upper tonality of the guitar, not the low-mids and bass (unless you're playing hardcore/thrash/whatever they call it now). Then lead guitar (same rules) and finally the vocals. Make sure the vocals really pop in the mix, emphasize the strong parts of the singer's voice and make sure you can clearly hear the lyrics and melody of the songs. Finally, any background vocals/auxilliary percussion/horns/etc... layer in on top of everything else.

**Thor** · #4 02-01-2008, 12:05 PM

subscribe.

The good ones are going back to the band.

F-Clef-Jef · #5 02-01-2008, 12:26 PM

Are you running EVERYTHING thru the PA? I believe that is the best way to get a good sound out front. Instrument speaker cabinets (especially guitar) are way too directional to get a good mix out front.
I second what bradjonesbass said, that's exactly how we've been doin it for the last 25 years. Also, what really helped to clean up the guitar/keys/horns/vocs registers was going stereo, and panning things in the mix a little bit. Really helped to get the instruments out of eachothers soundspace. That and some judicious EQ'ing of course.

Keep your stage volume down! Especially the drummer (ya - right!), (s)he pretty much sets the "noise floor", everyone else has to compete with him (or her).

SteveC · #6 02-01-2008, 12:32 PM

Post 3 is very good. I don't think you need a soundman. We set our own mix and basically leave it all night.

The "sonic space" part is important. Don't eq the guitar to be in the bass range, etc. Balance and blend, not volume makes you sound tight.

Also, mic everything. Many peopl edon't agree with this but I think it's important. We mic everything, not necessarily becaus eit needs volume, but for the blend and presence in the FOH mix. We always use a kick drum and overhead drum mic. The bass, keys, guitar and voxs are all in the PA. It makes for a balanced sound out front. It doesn't need to be loud, just present. We do this with an 8 channel Yamaha powered head and 2 15" 2 ways on sticks. It sounds great. our venues aren't huge, but you don't NEED a huge system to sound good. You need to know how to set up whatever system you have.

Good luck.

JerryKR · #7 02-01-2008, 12:42 PM

All very good suggestions, as far as the sound goes. For the actual performance, I would work on this stuff. Have the bass player and drummer work things out together. Such as making sure the kick and bass are in sync and they have they're timings down real tight. Like knowing where the groove is and where the accents happen. Nothing can throw a band off quicker then a weak rhythm section. Second, I would say have all the vocalists work on harmonizing. With and without instruments/the rest of the band. Good harmonization can take a band from amateur to pro real quick. Then work on the performance as a whole. If you play guitar or bass, work on not watching your hands (which will make you a better player overall) and concentrate on performing for the audience. Even before I started running sound and performing, I enjoyed a band much more if they looked like they were having fun on the stage. Instead of the bands that are so technical or nervous that they stand in one place and stare at their hands. Use practices for exactly what they are, practicing the music so you don't have to worry about that aspect of the show while on stage. That way when you finally get on stage, you can really let loose and play like you don't f***n' care!

JKT · #8 02-01-2008, 12:47 PM

Assuming the genre you're working in is not thrash or punk,etc, have a sit down and talk about dynamics. This IMO is one of the lost arts of live performance and can quickly set you above most other bands.

What most younger players (and quite a few older ones) don't seem to grasp is that you can have, and communicate intensity in your performance independant of volume. Volume really has very little to do with intensity, passion,etc. This goes along with the tone of the first suggestions you received re "turning down" the stage volume. But it goes farther than that. A high volume passage is basically meaningless without it being preceded by a passage at a lower volume. Next time you go hear local bands, note their volume level in a song from start to finish. "Graph it" in your head. Most likely you will find yourself drawing a line uphill to a certain point and then a straight and level line from there until the end of the song. This is ridiculously common. Rock, pop, blues, country, whatever.

Now imagine graphing it when the band collectively drops down behind each verse of the vocals. And the rhythm section drops down behind each solist in turn, perhaps building with the soloist and feeding off each other.
Imagine say a bass solo that never gets above a whisper- on purpose.

My band has played passages behind say the guitarist where I could actually make out entire conversations in the club until we began to build it back up again. Not only does this often have a profound effect on an audience, but it can change the way you play and think about soloing.
Concept is easy. It will take practice and perhaps some "intense fellowship" aomng band members but it will be worth it.

JKT

Phalex · #9 02-01-2008, 12:50 PM

+1 on keeping the stage volume low.

We recently invested in a couple of compressors and they have definitely "tightened" up our sound.

Unfortunately, it seems that to be tight in a musical sense you have to have played a tune pretty well into the ground. You can nail the tune to the friggin wall, but it's just not as fun as stuff you haven't played 100 times. Always always always make it look like you love every song you play. Nobody cares if you don't like a particular tune. You're job is to act like every song you play is your favorite song in the whole world. Try to make everyone believe you love what you do, and you love the people you're doing it with, and more importantly that you love the people you're doing it for.

But I digress.

Our sound guy also raves about the Aphex 204 processor. Definitely a worthwhile toy to have in the rack.

CincyBassMan · #10 02-01-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKT

Assuming the genre you're working in is not thrash or punk,etc, have a sit down and talk about dynamics. This IMO is one of the lost arts of live performance and can quickly set you above most other bands.

What most younger players (and quite a few older ones) don't seem to grasp is that you can have, and communicate intensity in your performance independant of volume. Volume really has very little to do with intensity, passion,etc. This goes along with the tone of the first suggestions you received re "turning down" the stage volume. But it goes farther than that. A high volume passage is basically meaningless without it being preceded by a passage at a lower volume. Next time you go hear local bands, note their volume level in a song from start to finish. "Graph it" in your head. Most likely you will find yourself drawing a line uphill to a certain point and then a straight and level line from there until the end of the song. This is ridiculously common. Rock, pop, blues, country, whatever.

Now imagine graphing it when the band collectively drops down behind each verse of the vocals. And the rhythm section drops down behind each solist in turn, perhaps building with the soloist and feeding off each other.
Imagine say a bass solo that never gets above a whisper- on purpose.

My band has played passages behind say the guitarist where I could actually make out entire conversations in the club until we began to build it back up again. Not only does this often have a profound effect on an audience, but it can change the way you play and think about soloing.
Concept is easy. It will take practice and perhaps some "intense fellowship" aomng band members but it will be worth it.

JKT

+1 Words to live by Mouseketeers!

twistdpair · #11 02-01-2008, 03:10 PM

So...what do you recommend for a loud drummer? Our drummer is AWESOME, possibly the best I've ever played with. The problem is the volume - his Noble & Cooley kit just projects like a motherf*****, and he is not a light player. This works fine in the larger/louder rooms. However, when we do the smaller places the stage volume gets out of control - everyone is up high just to hear themselves.

I would love to be able to tell him to buy a quieter kit or play more quietly, but money is an issue and when he gets quiet it's only temporary.

advice??

Thanks,
-cork

twistdpair · #12 02-01-2008, 03:12 PM

BTW...wish I could offer some advice, but I'm in the same boat...

Kenny Allyn · #13 02-01-2008, 03:32 PM

You can always tell a "bedroom" guitarist on a real stage ...

Same for bass, they play with waaaay too much bass and or distortion because that is what sounds good to them in the bedroom/garage/basement. If it sounds super bright to you on stage 20 feet out it's great. For bass it means usually cut some bass and punch the mids and thumbs up to using a good compressor!

... Some consider the WHO Live at Leeds to be the best live record ever ... listen to Entwistles bass

Juniorkimbrough · #14 02-01-2008, 03:33 PM

what tips do you guys/gals have on EQ'ing vocals and guitar thorough the PA. Many times our vocals sound low end heavy when the EQ is set flat and I have to start cutting the lows.

mambo4 · #15 02-01-2008, 03:42 PM

Great responses! Keep em coming!

JerryKR and JKT have both written, the sort of stuff I was hoping to see. I was thinking more of performance tactics like dynamics and EQ spectrum space, and less about running our own sound.

FWIW, we never play gigs with our own PA. some day we might have to, but for now it's always what the venue has on hand. So for the moment, the FOH mix is out of our hands (we do respect and tip the soundguys tho)

for those of you who use compressors to tighten your sound, have you found it makes a significant improvement? do you just throw compression on each indiviual instrument? or are there some (vocals, drums) that you skip?

**Thor** · #16 02-01-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistdpair

So...what do you recommend for a loud drummer? Our drummer is AWESOME, possibly the best I've ever played with. The problem is the volume - his Noble & Cooley kit just projects like a motherf*****, and he is not a light player. This works fine in the larger/louder rooms. However, when we do the smaller places the stage volume gets out of control - everyone is up high just to hear themselves.

I would love to be able to tell him to buy a quieter kit or play more quietly, but money is an issue and when he gets quiet it's only temporary.

advice??

Thanks,
-cork

My geetard from Rotten Angel has another band with a
drummer with the exact same profile.

He's got one dynamic. LOUD. Not much that's tasty. Stays
in 4/4. I don't think they guy could even do a 6/8 rhythm.
I had to sub in with that band once as a favor
and it was horrible.

The drill is they have a set of baffles made of plywood,
2 pieces hinged together, on set for each side that they
surround him with. The side facing him has acoustic foam glued to it.

You think this would be a glaring clue to the guy that he is
WAY TOO LOUD. He just bangs away, totally oblivious.

So they just smother his stage sound.

Rocketpriest · #17 02-01-2008, 04:27 PM

As hs already been said, dynamics are your very best friend. Look at amazingly awesome bands like Tool and Rush. They have tons of dynamic shifts in their songs, many moving from almost silent to very heavy/loud (see Tool's Lateralus, and Parabola). Dynamics don't even need to be the entire band being quiet, just one member laying back, like the guitarist sustaining a chord at medium volume while the bass and drums keep pumping (see Rush's Distant Early Warning) can make a massive impact. Another great trick is to use a cleaner guitar channel during verses, and lay on the distortion during the chorus (se Rush's Nobody's Hero - great example). And that's just the beginning. Tons of fun awaits you in the realm of dynamics!

Unfortunately, I don't really have a lot of experience with mic'ing, so I'm not any help on that front, although having everyone mic'ed and in everyone's monitor mix will vastly improve band communication, and should let you bring down the stage volume a good bit.

Stinsok · #18 02-01-2008, 06:54 PM

I've played music a long time but have never personally been responsible for running the sound. I'm in a new 3 piece band and have cobbled together a PA with limited resources. That PA includes a 16 channel board, an equalizer (1 side mains, 1 side monitors,) a simple Peavey Deltafex processor, seperate power amps for mains and monitors. I realize a compressor may be needed but for now this will have to do.

I get really scared when I think about trying to sing, play and manage the sound. I told my bandmates that vocals have priority over any instrument and we will have to watch our stage volume.

twistdpair · #19 02-02-2008, 10:32 AM

I had to do sound and setup and play for a couple medium-sized gigs when we first started playing out, and it SUCKED.

The best advice I can give you is to get someone - pay them a few bucks if you have to - to lend a hand.

The worst thing in the world is being in the middle of a song and stuff starts feeding back and the audience is making faces and covering their ears while you scramble for the board...

On that note...I could really use some discussion on live sound, so keep your eye out for a new thread. I believe the OP was looking less for PA-type advice, and more player-related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stinsok

I've played music a long time but have never personally been responsible for running the sound. I'm in a new 3 piece band and have cobbled together a PA with limited resources. That PA includes a 16 channel board, an equalizer (1 side mains, 1 side monitors,) a simple Peavey Deltafex processor, seperate power amps for mains and monitors. I realize a compressor may be needed but for now this will have to do.

I get really scared when I think about trying to sing, play and manage the sound. I told my bandmates that vocals have priority over any instrument and we will have to watch our stage volume.

darkfinger · #20 02-03-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistdpair

So...what do you recommend for a loud drummer? Our drummer is AWESOME, possibly the best I've ever played with. The problem is the volume - his Noble & Cooley kit just projects like a motherf*****, and he is not a light player. This works fine in the larger/louder rooms. However, when we do the smaller places the stage volume gets out of control - everyone is up high just to hear themselves.

I would love to be able to tell him to buy a quieter kit or play more quietly, but money is an issue and when he gets quiet it's only temporary.

advice??

Thanks,
-cork

Hey,
The drummer in my dirt bike rock band has the same problem, and he really likes cymbals. In a smaller room situation we get him to deaden the cymbals with duct tape on the undersides and play with lighter sticks. ie: 5As instead of 5Bs. It seems to work pretty well to quiet down his kit, and then we can adjust accordingly.
I hope that helps.