The ultimate conversation- I just had - Page 2

ThirstyMonkey · #21 02-12-2013, 11:09 AM

While I think the club owner mentioned by the OP is clueless, I do think that a band should try to do some promotion for their shows and bring in more than just the bar's regular crowd. It really is awful to play to a nearly empty room where no one us interested in the band.

I play in a classic rock cover band and our "regular" crowd comes to see us play (once/twice a month). It's not that many people, 10-15, but they're energetic and that helps get the regulars fired up and makes for a fun time for all.

As for the clueless bar owners, they should structure the deals to encourage bands to do some promotion. One venue we play at ups our fee based on the bar receipts. We make more money when the bar makes more money, win/win!

cjp3044 · #22 02-12-2013, 11:49 AM

The last "original" band I played with was faced with the incredibly poor area "promoters" -- in our area, as I'm sure it is in a lot of areas, the promoters think that they are doing you a favor by "allowing" you to play. You're given a stack of tickets to sell (usually required to sell a certain amount or pay the difference to play) even when you sell the required amount you don't get paid anything from it. AND they expect YOU to bring people to the show they are "promoting". The last show we did like this was opening up for the Dave Rude Band (Dave Rude from Tesla) - there was no "promotion" on the part of the "promoter" and after the last debacle with the same person, we told him flat out that we would play, but we weren't going to be responsible for selling his tickets, AND we wanted a piece of the overall ticket sales. Miserable night. Maybe 20 people there. The promoter had the gall to ask us if we were going to help cover his losses for the night - claimed he lost over 6 grand on the show. I told him that maybe if he had done hi job and PROMOTED it wouldn't have been so bad. Worse part is this was a Friday night, and the following night the same promoter was doing a show at the same venue for some Motley Crue tribute band and he actually promoted the hell out of that one with radio spots, posters,etc. From what I understand, he had a great turnout for THAT show, but blamed us for the previous night. On another note, Dave Rude is a super cool guy.

As for club owners? They are clueless. It really makes me sick that I make the same or less for playing in a cover band for 4 hours a night now as I did back in the 80s. Yeah some clubs have a set of regulars that they want to entertain, but they all hope that a band has a following that will come see them and improve their business for the night - if you have a following, you are much more likely to get asked back to a venue, but I still 100% agree with the OP - the club owners should be responsible for advertising their own clubs.

On the pay thing? I wish we could in reality use the following against club owners, but if you ever told a club owner this, they would just book a different band (the other problem, bands that are willing to work for crap money just to play - hurts the good bands that worth more): When a club owner asks how much you charge for a four hour night, tell them that a four hour night is really more like a 6 or 7 hour night because you have get there, set up the equipment, perform, then tear down the equipment so the band is really working for more than the 4 hours they are performing. When the owner again asks how much, just tell them to call a plumbing company and ask how much they would charge for x (number of people in band) number of plumbers to come out and work on a Saturday night for 6 hours, then tell them you'll do it for half that.

Of course that would never fly, but I'd love to try it once just to see the look on certain club owners' faces.

RustyAxe · #23 02-12-2013, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssabass

See, I think this resignation is part of the problem right there.

Whoa there ... I don't play bar gigs. I agree with what you say, but that won't change the reality. What should be and what IS are different things. I play in a band with a following, and with other projects that have their own niche. House concerts, special events, whatever. Good dough, no bar owner BS. I like it.

Joedog · #24 02-12-2013, 01:53 PM

While we can all relate, and I'm sure your retorts felt good, I think you were not doing a great sales job. Wasn't your goal to get the gig? Having said that, some gigs just ain't worth it.....but you need to give it a good sales pitch every time!

Factor88 · #25 02-12-2013, 01:58 PM

All I know is, everytime this issue comes up regarding bar owners and pay someone inevitably brings up how much it would cost the bar to hire a plumber.

Apparently many of us have missed out on that sweetest of all gigs, snaking toilets for a living. And to think I spent all those years in high school dreaming of being like John Paul Jones when I could of been dreamin' of being the RotoRooter guy

obimark · #26 02-12-2013, 02:05 PM

I don't care that we didn't get the gig, because this lady wasn't going to pay more than $100 anyhow. TO me this is not a loss, if you set your sights that low, then that is where you shall stay.

I see a lot of people here who make excuses for being mistreated. Guess what it WILL NEVER stop until you stop accepting it. This applies to bands, jobs, and relationships. (also for the record another band member initially approached her)

Kmonk · #27 02-12-2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obimark

I explained to her, "Mam, my band's job is to entertain the people your club brings in, and keep them there for longer so they buy more stuff, not to bring the crowd for you. Your welcome to look at our website and contact me, but I will only guarantee that we bring the four people in our band."

This is not a good answer. Yes, your job is to entertain people that the club brings in and keep them there for a longer amount of time but it also your job to draw people to the club. There is no sense in paying a band that doesn't have a following and can't draw. I have been playing for 35 years and if I owned a club I would want to know what type of following a band has before I guaranteed any amount of money.

dmusic148 · #28 02-12-2013, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmonk

This is not a good answer. Yes, your job is to entertain people that the club brings in and keep them there for a longer amount of time but it also your job to draw people to the club. There is no sense in paying a band that doesn't have a following and can't draw. I have been playing for 35 years and if I owned a club I would want to know what type of following a band has before I guaranteed any amount of money.

IMO it's the venues responsibility to consistently book really good bands, which guarantees a consistent door, which guarantees everybody gets paid, consistently (unless the venue has some other horrible problem). Simple. Good bands, always. There's a method to this. Word gets around. Relying on some band to bring you a crowd based on promises is folly.

tycobb73 · #29 02-12-2013, 03:00 PM

You are both wrong. It is the bar's and the band's responsibility to bring people.

cjp3044 · #30 02-12-2013, 03:05 PM

So I take it you don't think you're playing and entertainment value is worth the same in pay as a plumber gets? Too bad for you, personally, I think I'm worth a hell of alot MORE than a plumber gets.

The point of those statements has nothing to do with being a plumber, but what club owners are willing to pay a group of people to work on a Saturday night. Frankly, it really bothers me that bands get no more today for playing bar gigs than they did 30 years ago. Drink prices have gone up, cover charges have gone up, band pay hasn't.

And as I said, telling a club owner that bit about plumbers would get you nowhere, but the principle is sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor88

All I know is, everytime this issue comes up regarding bar owners and pay someone inevitably brings up how much it would cost the bar to hire a plumber.

Apparently many of us have missed out on that sweetest of all gigs, snaking toilets for a living. And to think I spent all those years in high school dreaming of being like John Paul Jones when I could of been dreamin' of being the RotoRooter guy

Biggbass · #31 02-12-2013, 03:12 PM

I explained to her, "Mam, my band's job is to entertain the people your club brings in, and keep them there for longer so they buy more stuff, not to bring the crowd for you. Your welcome to look at our website and contact me, but I will only guarantee that we bring the four people in our band."

I disagree with this...to a point...part of your job IS to bring in business. When we play a club, for instance, we can pretty much guarantee the club mgr or owner that we'll bring in at least 50 people...and we normally bring in more. Last Sat night we maxed the capacity of the place and had around 125 people there. The owner told us they had the best food and beverage night in years. The cook said he was slammed all night and in the 12 years he'd been there he couldn't remember a busier night. They thanked us again and again and asked that we play there on a regular basis...for us that's once every 8 weeks at any given venue, which helps insure that the fans we bring in will come out and party with us.

Yes, your job is to entertain and help motivate sales for the place, but your job is also to bring your fans in with you and convert the regulars.

obimark · #32 02-12-2013, 03:28 PM

For a relatively new band like ours, we simply are not going to draw an extra 50 people. And certainly not to a crappy,small place like this one.
Maybe after a year of playing gigs, MAYBE. But I honestly do not know of many cover bands that consistently can draw 50 people to each gig,, unless they are playing somewhere that people want to go, Not a no-name restaraunt/bar with poor atmosphere. This is chicken and egg, if you are playing a good place, more people will come. If you are playing a crappy place less/no people will come.

hbarcat · #33 02-12-2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssabass

See, I think this resignation is part of the problem right there. Have you have accepted the fact that your job is to bring a crowd to a bar all the time, every gig? Is that reasonable? I don't think so, not even close. Sure, you will have friends and family show up at an odd gig here and there, inconsistently- but it is not your job to pack a place. A venue needs a business plan to make itself successful. It needs a good bar with good staff- a good menu, a good atmosphere or vibe. Entertainment keeps people there, hanging out, spending money- it's part of the atmosphere that a good place might offer.

A great many part time bands do have the idea that their job is to bring dozens of fans to whatever bar they are playing at and even hundreds of fans to bigger venues and festivals and such. The venues which do have a good business plan know these bands are a draw and are willing to pay more for them. They won't waste their time looking at bands who might only bring a couple of hangers on, or if they do, it will be as a favor to the band and they aren't going to be well paid.

There is no reason why you couldn't be one of those bigger draw bands as long as you were willing to put in the time and effort to establish a loyal fan base made up of people who will spread the word about how much fun it is to go to one of your band's shows. For bands who make it this far the rewards are not only more money, more consistently, but having larger crowds cheering and screaming your name. This is one hell of a rush and it gets better and more satisfying in direct proportion to the number of people in the crowd.

Of course, most part time gigging bands are not at this level (though most of them could be if they wanted to) and it's really their job to keep the resident customers entertained and enjoying themselves so they'll stay longer and order more booze (as you said). Many bands are perfectly content to stay at this level and are simply playing for the fun of it and a few extra bucks in gas money.

Every gigging band should understand this difference in band capability and so should every club manager/owner. Those who do know should politely educate those who don't and everyone will be better off.

obimark · #34 02-12-2013, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbarcat

A great many part time bands do have the idea that their job is to bring dozens of fans to whatever bar they are playing at and even hundreds of fans to bigger venues and festivals and such. The venues which do have a good business plan know these bands are a draw and are willing to pay more for them. They won't waste their time looking at bands who might only bring a couple of hangers on, or if they do, it will be as a favor to the band and they aren't going to be well paid.

There is no reason why you couldn't be one of those bigger draw bands as long as you were willing to put in the time and effort to establish a loyal fan base made up of people who will spread the word about how much fun it is to go to one of your band's shows. For bands who make it this far the rewards are not only more money, more consistently, but having larger crowds cheering and screaming your name. This is one hell of a rush and it gets better and more satisfying in direct proportion to the number of people in the crowd.

Of course, most part time gigging bands are not at this level (though most of them could be if they wanted to) and it's really their job to keep the resident customers entertained and enjoying themselves so they'll stay longer and order more booze (as you said). Many bands are perfectly content to stay at this level and are simply playing for the fun of it and a few extra bucks in gas money.

Every gigging band should understand this difference in band capability and so should every club manager/owner. Those who do know should politely educate those who don't and everyone will be better off.

Good advice, in a large area like ATL which IMO just doesn't have a good live music scene at all, (other than DJs) there are not many COVER bands that are going to draw big crowds. There ARE places that draw big crowds, but the band playing there is NOT the draw, it is the club. Now these dj's they just setup there junk, start spinning records, and people show up in droves, go figure...

Kmonk · #35 02-12-2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tycobb73

You are both wrong. It is the bar's and the band's responsibility to bring people.

This was exactly my point so how could I be wrong? If you read my post you would see that I stated that the band has to entertain and keep the people who the club brought in and the band also has to be able draw people to the club.

Richland123 · #36 02-12-2013, 04:12 PM

For a somewhat related story. A few years ago, a guy who comes to see my band in a town about 50 miles away asked if we would play a banquet hall that he and his sister own. They wanted to start having bands on Sunday evenings from 7:00 - 10:00 once a month but they could not afford much since they did not have bands for many years and wanted to build the place up again.

He was asking some of the well known bands that had a "good following" in the area. We were doing very well at several clubs in that town and lots of people knew us and liked our band and we attracted many people at other venues. So, they booked a few bands and we agreed to a Sunday in February for less than we would normally get to help out and hopefully get more gigs in the future there.

Most of the people from our hometown were not going to drive an hour each way when gas was $4.00 a gallon but 7 of them actually did. Well, the day of the gig, we found out they did not do any advertising at all (newspaper, flyers, radio, etc.) that they were having Sunday bands. That was not the worst of it. They had a huge, lighted, marquee sign along the road in the parking lot that not only did not have our band name and date on it but it had the name of the band that played there a month before (and it was free for them to change their own sign along a very busy road).

Therefore, nobody even knew we were booked there other than a few people. They acted as if we were magically supposed to pack their place but they did nothing to tell people we were there. I found out that they did not learn from that night and the next few bands that played there went through the same issue and they were not advertised either. Needless to say, they stopped having bands.

obimark · #37 02-12-2013, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richland123

For a somewhat related story. A few years ago, a guy who comes to see my band in a town about 50 miles away asked if we would play a banquet hall that he and his sister own. They wanted to start having bands on Sunday evenings from 7:00 - 10:00 once a month but they could not afford much since they did not have bands for many years and wanted to build the place up again.

He was asking some of the well known bands that had a "good following" in the area. We were doing very well at several clubs in that town and lots of people knew us and liked our band and we attracted many people at other venues. So, they booked a few bands and we agreed to a Sunday in February for less than we would normally get to help out and hopefully get more gigs in the future there.

Most of the people from our hometown were not going to drive an hour each way when gas was $4.00 a gallon but 7 of them actually did. Well, the day of the gig, we found out they did not do any advertising at all (newspaper, flyers, radio, etc.) that they were having Sunday bands. That was not the worst of it. They had a huge, lighted, marquee sign along the road in the parking lot that not only did not have our band name and date on it but it had the name of the band that played there a month before (and it was free for them to change their own sign along a very busy road).

Therefore, nobody even knew we were booked there other than a few people. They acted as if we were magically supposed to pack their place but they did nothing to tell people we were there. I found out that they did not learn from that night and the next few bands that played there went through the same issue and they were not advertised either. Needless to say, they stopped having bands.

Exactly.

Stone Soup · #38 02-12-2013, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmusic148

it's the venues responsibility to consistently book really good bands, which guarantees a consistent door, which guarantees everybody gets paid

I couldn't agree more, but it never happens. The shi++y bands with loyal friends and family will win every time.

dmusic148 · #39 02-12-2013, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

I couldn't agree more, but it never happens. The shi++y bands with loyal friends and family will win every time.

Hey, if they can consistently pack places with friends and family and get paid, more power to 'em. Doesn't happen in my world, but hey, good for them.

cjp3044 · #40 02-12-2013, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone Soup

I couldn't agree more, but it never happens. The shi++y bands with loyal friends and family will win every time.

Two of the worst cover bands in my area are like this - they suck to the point where it's painful to listen to them, BUT they bring a crowd EVERY time they play. (and one of them is one of the bands that goes around and undercuts everyone on price so they can get more gigs). If I were a bar/club owner, I'd hire them back too if they were making me a profit - as long as I didn't have to be there on the nights they play.