Unorganized Practice

[glocke1]

So recently I reconnected with members of a band I used to play in a few years ago. The band broke up because the KB player left and everyone really just got kind of discouraged. The bands practice location is really a good hour from me, and while not looking forward ot the drive my desire to play is just too strong to let that drive stop me.

The band is a "jam band" in the sense they take tunes and draw them out with extended solos. Now these guys were never the most organized, and the guitar player is really kind of a control freak, if someone calls out a song at practice he gets weird and calls out a different one, and often times will pull crap like insisting people play a tune at practice that may not have ever been heard or played before by people. This last really irritates me as have usually spent the previous week working on material that I had thought we would be going over.

After spending the past 3 rehearsals kind of muddling through tunes and not really getting anything accomplished, the drummer wrote down all the songs that were repeatedly played in rehearsal, it came to about 20 tunes, and sent this out via email with instructions to focus on these. I spent a few days this week working on most of them and learning my parts. Yesterday was rehearsal, and I show up to find that Im really the only one to have practiced, and that the lead guitar player did not want to play ANY of the stuff on the list, and instead started pulling songs out of his butt and writing what he thought were the right changes on a white board. I had never heard of or played any of these tunes, yet he was insistent on people trying them....

Im not sure what my next steps are with these guys....We have been meeting up every other week for 6 hours at a shot for 2-3 months now and we barely have ten songs we can play all the way through.

It is a startup band and we are looking for a 5th member (KB player), but it seems to me that at this point we should have at least a solid 20 tunes down that we can play.

Am I asking too much by thinking we should be further along than we are, and by stepping up and saying we need to be better organized with a 20 song "core" to get solid on...

[Renaissance]

IME you can only change people for a short time. If someone has a tendency to be late or controlling or whatnot - they will always be that way. You may be able to get some short term efforts to straighten up and fly right on their part but eventually the old habits will creep back. This is a very general observation of course and your situation may be different. I would put my concerns on the table and see what happens. It sounds like the drummer has had it also. If you can't get any satisfaction, move on!

Music is not how I make a living so I don't need the BS that goes with my day job. Enjoy the time with your bandmates and the music or move on.

[DanNowhere]

I've quit bands for things like lack of consideration for my time. If you're driving an hour one way, showing up prepared, and then having your time wasted, you should definitely call the lead guitarist out on it. Rehearsals are everyone's time invested, and when one of the members is wasting that time, the problem needs to be dealt with immediately.

[jive1]

I've been there before with the control freaks that prevent you from getting anything done.

I would have a heart to heart with the control freak and ask him a simple question. "What's more important to you? Being in control or having the band accomplish something? You don't have to be honest with me, but you should be honest with yourself".

Prepare yourself for alot of defensiveness, excuses, etc. You may even get fired. Just stick with the facts and point out how his actions prevented the band from moving forward. Focus on the results, which is after 3 months of practice you only have about 10 songs down and aren't ready for a show.

You probably won't get the guy to change, but you may. But at least you know where the guy really stands and you can make a decision for yourself. If being in control is more important, whether he implicitly says it or not, will tell you that you need to leave. If he were in control and you got stuff done, you probably wouldn't complain as much. But it's getting in the way, and if that's his main focus, then the band will go in his drection, which will probably be nowhere.

Long practices are like long meetings. People fill in the time with junk instead of sticking with the plan, because there is enough time to. Maybe consider making the practices 2-3 hours long, to make people focus.

[steveksux]

You'll never get anything accomplished if they keep going at it like that. Its hard enough to get people to do their homework and come to rehearsal prepared without ignoring all the songs people were supposed to work on and pulling out songs nobody else has even heard before.

Raise your hand at the next practice, look the guitar player in the eyes, and say NO. If you want to do that song, put it on the list for next week. We'll do it next week when everyone is prepared.

No reason to waste rehearsal time learning 1 completely new song in the time it would take to get 6 down pat that everyone already learned at home. You should all be able to play the song before you get together, and only the harmonies should need any significant amount of work.

If that's not acceptable, tell them that I'm not willing to waste time at home rehearsing songs we aren't going to go over at rehearsal, and I'm not wasting time at rehearsal learning songs nobody has gone over or even heard before.

Randy

[Marko5657]

Originally Posted by steveksux

…

Raise your hand at the next practice, look the guitar player in the eyes, and say NO. If you want to do that song, put it on the list for next week. We'll do it next week when everyone is prepared.
…

If that's not acceptable, tell them that I'm not willing to waste time at home rehearsing songs we aren't going to go over at rehearsal, and I'm not wasting time at rehearsal learning songs nobody has gone over or even heard before.

Randy

Yep…

It’s unfortunate, but with some people, ya only get the respect you demand.

If that doesn’t work, then it’s an unworkable situation; better off finding out.

[bluewine]

There are no easy answers here. I think the problem lies within how difficult it is to move from start up band, to fully rehearsed show ready band


I shared my experience with trying to work with start ups.What I found comon among these start ups were;

No leadership

Marginal Organization

Poor rehearsal space

Minimal experience (meaning nobody had a clue of what it takes to make a band work)

Low Level Gear

Effort,they didn't understand that concept

blue

[glocke1]

Maybe Im just spoiled...Up until a few years ago (when I moved to my current location) for the most part I was always playing with motivated individuals, music school students, people who showed up to practice with their parts learned, etc...Where I am at now it is almost impossible to find people that have that level of focus and dedication.

To me, even a start up band is a no brainer....You don't need 60+ songs for a start up band. Pick 20 or so songs that are within the vocal range and musical abilities of the members and focus on getting those tight, schedule some gigs with those and than work on another 20 tunes. It really is not rocket science...

The rehearsal space is great. Nice big farmhouse loaded with equipment that works. All I need to do is show up with my bass.

I do enjoy the company of these guys a great deal, they are great to hang with, but as much as I enjoy their company I am really in this to make good sounding music and to progress as a musician...

[MadDogM]

This is the exact situation I was in just a little while ago, but with a drummer of all people. I was playing guitar in this band and was having fun until the drummer decided to start writing guitar parts (that brings to mind the joke--what were the drummer's last words before he died? "I have a song we can do")

Well eventually I was kicked out of the band, though the singer and I had seriously contemplated quitting anyway. It wouldn't have been worth it to stay. As fun as it was, if you don't like the people you have to work with, don't stay. Unless you're making money (kidding.)

Originally Posted by jive1

I've been there before with the control freaks that prevent you from getting anything done.

I would have a heart to heart with the control freak and ask him a simple question. "What's more important to you? Being in control or having the band accomplish something? You don't have to be honest with me, but you should be honest with yourself".

Prepare yourself for alot of defensiveness, excuses, etc. You may even get fired. Just stick with the facts and point out how his actions prevented the band from moving forward. Focus on the results, which is after 3 months of practice you only have about 10 songs down and aren't ready for a show.

You probably won't get the guy to change, but you may. But at least you know where the guy really stands and you can make a decision for yourself. If being in control is more important, whether he implicitly says it or not, will tell you that you need to leave. If he were in control and you got stuff done, you probably wouldn't complain as much. But it's getting in the way, and if that's his main focus, then the band will go in his drection, which will probably be nowhere.

Long practices are like long meetings. People fill in the time with junk instead of sticking with the plan, because there is enough time to. Maybe consider making the practices 2-3 hours long, to make people focus.

Jive knows what's up.

[onosson]

Man, that sounds like a disaster. I play in 2-3 different acts in any given week quite frequently - 75% of those (or more) get no rehearsal at all. For those gigs where I do agree to a rehearsal, I rarely do more than one, after learning my parts down pat... and if I'm asked to do more than one rehearsal, it had better be for above average pay on the gig, or I definitely let the lead party know that I just do not have that kind of time.

I'm like you, I most often show up having done all my homework while everyone else hasn't done a thing. In other words, everyone is just wasting my/your time. Trust me, you will be much much happier the sooner you stop letting people waste your time like that - I speak from experience!

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by glocke1

The band is a "jam band" ......

By your description, it seems to me that it's a few guys who show up at the same location to indulge their wankishness, especially the guitar player.

Based on what you described, they'll never play out.

I vote for moving on. Find some people closer to home.

[Adam Bomb]

OP, I feel your pain.

On the one hand, what everybody is saying. It's insulting when bandmates put no thought into the project unless they are in the rehearsal space with you. That seems to be the situation I am in right now.

OTOH, 10 songs down in 6 long sessions is not nothing. Is it stone pro? No. Does it sound more productive than most of the projects I have been associated with? Sadly, si.

Maybe, book a gig? Something to motivate and focus on?

Me, I'm trying to accept/enjoy that I just go and get loud for a few hours a week. It's fun! And honestly I don't have time for anything else.

--Bomb

[Rusty the Scoob]

Originally Posted by bluewine

There are no easy answers here. I think the problem lies within how difficult it is to move from start up band, to fully rehearsed show ready band


I shared my experience with trying to work with start ups.What I found comon among these start ups were;

No leadership

Marginal Organization

Poor rehearsal space

Minimal experience (meaning nobody had a clue of what it takes to make a band work)

Low Level Gear

Effort,they didn't understand that concept

blue

Good post here. Sounds like the OP is stuck in a group of Practice Room Heroes. I've very rarely seen Practice Room Heroes turn into real gigging musicians and never as a complete band.

[Rockmusician]

I was in a band in the early 80's. We had a great following and were gigging 5 nights per week for more than 3 years. One night, the drummer walks into rehearsal and says "from now on, we are only going to do heavy metal and if anyone doesn't like it, they can go find another band". Needless to say, that was the end of our band. We finished the gigs we had scheduled and then stopped playing together. 17 years later, we got back together minus one of the original guitar players. We decided to hold auditions for a replacement. The drummer knew a guy named Rick that he used to play with and invited him to come down. He was very good but myself and our second guitarist felt that we should try several different guys and then pick the one that would best fit in. The drummer said no, "Rick is the guitar player and if you don't like it, go find another band". I packed my gear and left. The second guitarist left the following week and the new guitarist, Rick left 2 weeks later. Some people never change.
It worked out well for me. I ended up hooking up with touring band and went all over the US and Canada opening for many well known artists. The drummer is still playing covers in dive bars near his house.

[glocke1]

Originally Posted by Rusty the Scoob

Good post here. Sounds like the OP is stuck in a group of Practice Room Heroes. I've very rarely seen Practice Room Heroes turn into real gigging musicians and never as a complete band.

Hey Rusty Ive seen you over at rukind.

I guess thats exactly what these guys are..

Its unfortunate as they can definitely play, and I have some recordings of gigs that we played together a few years back that were really impressive, tight arrangements, spontaneous improv that sound good, etc..

It's a pretty frustrating experience. As much as I like the jammy material, I really need to have organization and structure in my musical situations. By this I mean discussions about what songs will be played at rehearsal, and sticking to that plan. There is nothing more irritating to me than to spend a few hours during the week working on stuff you think you will play at rehearsal only to have someone decide that other stuff (stuff Ive never heard or played before, and that they themselves are not even sure of the changes ) is going to be played.

[EddiePlaysBass]

Originally Posted by glocke1

There is nothing more irritating to me than to spend a few hours during the week working on stuff you think you will play at rehearsal only to have someone decide that other stuff (stuff Ive never heard or played before, and that they themselves are not even sure of the changes ) is going to be played.

Personally I disagree with that: spending a few hours during the week working on stuff you think you will play at rehearsal only to find that one specific member has yet again not spent an inkling of time working on said song, so you end up playing the same 15 songs you've been playing for the past 3 years, now THAT is more irritating.

Especially if said member is the singer and could have listened to the songs twice for the melody and printed the lyrics for rehearsal. And he wonders why the guitarist decided to quit, and the drummer and I didn't feel like finding another one.

[Rusty the Scoob]

Originally Posted by glocke1

Hey Rusty Ive seen you over at rukind.

I guess thats exactly what these guys are..

Its unfortunate as they can definitely play, and I have some recordings of gigs that we played together a few years back that were really impressive, tight arrangements, spontaneous improv that sound good, etc..

It's a pretty frustrating experience. As much as I like the jammy material, I really need to have organization and structure in my musical situations. By this I mean discussions about what songs will be played at rehearsal, and sticking to that plan. There is nothing more irritating to me than to spend a few hours during the week working on stuff you think you will play at rehearsal only to have someone decide that other stuff (stuff Ive never heard or played before, and that they themselves are not even sure of the changes ) is going to be played.

Ah, cool!

Ok, I'm seeing two ways to attack this.

The drummer wrote down 20 songs that you know, and you and he think you need to focus on those. I'm going to disagree with that... once you have a song down, move on to something else. Or if a song needs work in the bridge, for example, don't spend 20 minutes going through the jam. Work through the bridge instead and get to the jam if you have time.

The other issue is your guitar player.... he obviously thinks he's in charge, or wants to be. You could fight this notion, but you'll waste a lot of time and probably rip the band apart. I'd say instead to encourage his natural tendency to be in charge. Have him decide ahead of time what songs he wants to work on, and communicate that list to the group. That way you'll expand your songlist and make him happy at the same time.

Once you have the band dynamics working smoothly, you'll have a much easier time getting a keyboard player. experienced players will sniff out a dysfunctional band a mile away, and from your description of the guitar player's behavior sounds like it's not even subtle in your case.

[TWolf]

Originally Posted by bluewine

There are no easy answers here. I think the problem lies within how difficult it is to move from start up band, to fully rehearsed show ready band


I shared my experience with trying to work with start ups.What I found comon among these start ups were;

No leadership

Marginal Organization

Poor rehearsal space

Minimal experience (meaning nobody had a clue of what it takes to make a band work)

Low Level Gear

Effort,they didn't understand that concept

blue

+1
Great post

[sobie18]

Are drugs the underlying problem? Sounds like the guitarist is a tad fried.

[mpdd]

prior to us getting a singer the drummer and i used to have this weird competition to see who could play the fastest, which really didn't do anything except waste studio time

now we actually play songs, practice, work out solos, and tweak arrangements
you gotta work with people who are either serious or cooperative
(the singer has also booked shows, which rules, because we hadn't even told her that she was in the band by that time)