Unpaid Intern Musicians?!?

[tmdazed]

Originally Posted by henry2513

Apprentices work for free to learn a craft. This guy is a student he's not a seasoned pro. I'm playing devils advocate here. And I can almost guarantee this is the thought process.

Anyways musicians are not laborers, musicians aren't "artists". Musicians are professionals. I wouldn't consider anyone who's invested thousands of hours, thousands of dollars in education and equipment to be in a labor position or an "artist" happy to have someone view their work. To me a labor position is something you can fill with raw manpower.

If we can change this perception about what musicians are then maybe how we're treated will change.

I call ******** on this, first of all , I apprenticed a trade and made a decent wage , not like a J-man but a wage that allowed me to live. A musician is an artist , one who doesn't create his own material is still an artist, just a copy artist. man you have skewed vision of what makes an artist. Visual artists spend a ton of dough to ply their art , it aint all pretty pictures on canvas.

I never did get this whole unpaid inter crap, if I have someone working for me and can do the job , they get paid and the experience, all internship is is a means of holding ones degree or certificate hostage until someone gets slave labour ( Yes slaves are forced to work , and do so unpaid) its a BS system

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Jhengsman

The way I understand the OP, this wasn't the Nashville industry but rather the parent/manager who lives off of the labor of their child, who they hope is the next Taylor Swift, trying to think outside of the box to get some more money out of their goose. When the union and large record label heard they got involved the parent/manager backed off

Ahh, I think I understand. A bit of that got lost in translation. Still, it goes to show that there are crappy people all around you have to watch out for.

Without being ironic, you'd have to pay me quite a bit to play with an act that was managed by their mother or father. I don't think I could deal well with having a gig in which a stage mom or dad was there all of the time.

[cableguy]

Originally Posted by henry2513

Apprentices work for free to learn a craft. This guy is a student he's not a seasoned pro. I'm playing devils advocate here. And I can almost guarantee this is the thought process.

This is dead wrong. Look at any labor union or non-union company for that matter. Apprentices earn less than journeymen while they learn their craft, but they are paid. Usually increasing in wage in steps until they are journeymen. This goes for electricians, plumbers, carpenters, etc.

Just stating the facts......

[Wally Malone]

We need to remember that with the Musician's Union scale is set as the minimal wage one should receive. The really good players charge well above union scale, sometimes double and triple. This is not the same as plumbers and electricians, the groups that have apprentice programs. If you are good enough to play the gig you deserve at least the minimal scale.

Wally

[bolophonic]

I have apprenticed in two non-union shops, in two different industries. In both cases, I was paid a crummy but not unreasonable wage while I worked from the bottom up.

In the second shop, the boss made several attempts to take advantage of the many people who applied for jobs while I was working for full pay, offering them all manner of unpaid internships in order to maximize his own profit while they "paid their dues" and "got their feet wet" and whatever. He was a horrible, dishonest creep who got exactly what he paid for

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

I'm glad this might not be as bad as it first sounded, Roy. But I need to correct two answers/quotes of Freddels' post that dismissed it sumarily, and incorrectly.

2012 was a year of record business profits, and record low wages.
http://www.businessinsider.com/corpo...ime-low-2012-6

The stock market in 2012 has consistently been within 10% of the all-time high for the stock market.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1396201.html

http://www.stockpickssystem.com/hist...ate-of-return/

What Freddels said was right on the money. You guys who think it was bunk need to WAKE UP and get informed IMHO.

Wow! Someone that has watched more than Faux News.

[Nigel Rahmshard]

Working for no pay is called slavery, unless its called an internship apparently.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

I'm glad this might not be as bad as it first sounded, Roy. But I need to correct two answers/quotes of Freddels' post that dismissed it sumarily, and incorrectly.

2012 was a year of record business profits, and record low wages.
http://www.businessinsider.com/corpo...ime-low-2012-6

The stock market in 2012 has consistently been within 10% of the all-time high for the stock market.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1396201.html

http://www.stockpickssystem.com/hist...ate-of-return/

What Freddels said was right on the money. You guys who think it was bunk need to WAKE UP and get informed IMHO.

I'm well informed enough to read past the inflamatory nature of that Business Insider "article." I don't read Huffington Post for business information.....

[Jeremy Darrow]

Originally Posted by Nigel Rahmshard

Working for no pay is called slavery, unless its called an internship apparently.

Since we're going off-topic; there are many places where an unpaid internship genuinely benefits the intern in big ways. First, there are usually credit-hours provided for an internship. Second, the internship gives the intern real life exposure to the job they are training for. They should go from observing the job, with explanations from their supervisor, to performing SOME tasks with supervision, to eventually performing the job they are training for, still under supervision. The intern gets to really do the job in a zero, or low risk situation and (hopefully) enters the job market with real experience, some contacts and a letter of recommendation.

The situation that started this thread doesn't sound like it's providing any of that.

[singlemalt]

Union apprentices win their spots by passing several screening tests and interviews. Many who make it into the programs have spent time in Americore or some other program that helps kids gain skills in preparation for employment. Their apprenticeships are strictly structured and, at least here in Oregon, their period of indenture is registered with the state.

They start of as first term apprentices at 50% of journeyman wage, and if they complete each of four weeks of training per year, (take a week off work and report to the training center) and log their on the job hours, and keep themselves working, they advance in pay every six months. It's not an easy road.

After four years, if they are lucky enough to work steadily, kept up with school, and keep up their paper work they turn out as journeymen. In today's economy, it's often more than four years. 8000 hours.

If they can't hack it, they lose their place. They pay their dues, both at work and at the hall.

At no point are they ever asked to work for free, though many participate in union supported charitable or political causes.

Since union membership in the private sector has been beaten down to all time lows over the last 30 years, I can see how many folks might not know just how an apprenticeship works.

You can see how a kid who makes it through four years of apprenticeship, while earning a decent wage, might be in better shape financially than a kid who went deep in debt for a liberal arts bachelors degree, and then takes an internship position.

[lowfreq33]

Internships are meant to be a mutually beneficial experience for both parties. The intern gains valuable real world experience and skills, and the employer gets someone to handle menial tasks for little or no money, as well as first crack at hiring a potentially promising young worker. I interned at a studio when I graduated audio school, and it wasn't too long before they started paying me to assist on sessions, engineer for some of the "charity" projects, etc. Got to work with Tommy Sims on a CeCe Winans record.

But what Roy's talking about is complete ********.

[ACalbass]

The idea now is for us to apply for those internship,and given we are way better than this kids,we get those unpaid jobs.
Only thing is,we agree to play horrible and make all possible mistakes on stage.
What's the worst that can happen? getting fired?
If enough people do the same thing,they will forget about not paying musicians.

[nortonrider]

From what I understand, some prospective Tattoo artists actually Pay to become someone's apprentice.

If that's true,
what is stopping this female singer from charging musicians for the experience that they gain from playing with her?

[dDaddybass]

I'm sorry if this has been covered in the previous 73 posts, but, how is this different from a band that agrees to play for free? Isn't it the same thing, only on an individual level?

[hernameisrio]

Man...I worked as an unpaid recording studio intern for a little over a year and that was bad enough. I can't believe this!

[hernameisrio]

@ dDaddy, it's different. I can't put it into words exactly just yet, it's just different. This isn't like, a group of people who do it for a "hobby" just being like, "Yee-haw, let's do a couple covers and write originals and play at Joe-Bob's Irish Pub for free while we work day jobs!" You know?

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by dDaddybass

I'm sorry if this has been covered in the previous 73 posts, but, how is this different from a band that agrees to play for free? Isn't it the same thing, only on an individual level?

It's different because the Act is being paid, but her Sidemen are doing work as "Interns" that they are not being paid for. So it would be like an Elvis Impersonator who sells his act to a club for $750 a night while his four piece backup band works for free for "the experience"-or more correctly with the way it appears to be at the moment he pays his sidemen, say, $50 for the date each and requires them to put up all the posters, book the gig, do all the contract work, rent the van, and load in, load out and set up the PA as "internship" experience. As I said in one of the earlier posts, this is totally opposite from the "cooperative band as speculative venture" of a band like Kings of Leon when they were starting up.

[pan1k]

I was a temp bassist for a popular local band for free simply to network which I find to be far more profitable than money. In my time with them, I was able to record in the best studio in town / one of top studios In the country, play at larger venues and meet some producers for future projects.

[Roy Vogt]

FWIW, I can remember several Old School Opry Acts that had band members doing extra duties (driving the bus, cleaning the bus, office help, etc.) as well as playing, but they were either on weekly salary regardless of how many dates they worked or were paid extra for the extra work. The late Porter Wagoner used to split whatever the rate he booked for with sidemen getting 10-15% of the take each. It was not unheard of for those guys to make $750 a date by this arrangement. Porter was a Class Act.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by pan1k

I was a temp bassist for a popular local band for free simply to network which I find to be far more profitable than money. In my time with them, I was able to record in the best studio in town / one of top studios In the country, play at larger venues and meet some producers for future projects.

How much money did they make for each engagement you worked for free? If you were the only one doing so did you feel exploited? Did your working for free lead to paying work or other opportunities or was it "it will lead to your Big Break"?
From the vantage point of a few decades doing this I've learned a general rule that people will value you as much as you teach them to. If you are a lowball player they can get for little or nothing you are teaching them that they can always get you for little or nothing. I'm afraid I had to learn this the hard way.