Unpaid Intern Musicians?!?

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

I'm glad this might not be as bad as it first sounded, Roy. But I need to correct two answers/quotes of Freddels' post that dismissed it sumarily, and incorrectly.

2012 was a year of record business profits, and record low wages.
http://www.businessinsider.com/corpo...ime-low-2012-6

The stock market in 2012 has consistently been within 10% of the all-time high for the stock market.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1396201.html

http://www.stockpickssystem.com/hist...ate-of-return/

What Freddels said was right on the money. You guys who think it was bunk need to WAKE UP and get informed IMHO.

Facts? We don't need no stinkin' facts! It's about how I feel, man.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by bolophonic

I have apprenticed in two non-union shops, in two different industries. In both cases, I was paid a crummy but not unreasonable wage while I worked from the bottom up.

In the second shop, the boss made several attempts to take advantage of the many people who applied for jobs while I was working for full pay, offering them all manner of unpaid internships in order to maximize his own profit while they "paid their dues" and "got their feet wet" and whatever. He was a horrible, dishonest creep who got exactly what he paid for

That's the path we're going. Companies are roping young people my age into thinking that the only way in is to be an indentured servant for 3 years. It is impossible to enter a skill these days without needing 3-5 years experience. Sad...because I know people including myself who would be fit for those jobs.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by henry2513

The question we have to ask is why is this even happening in the first place. What is it about the perception of who a musician is that encourages companies to do this?

Some of it has to do with the poor economy, a large part of it has to do with the stereotypical "persona" of who a musician is.

How do we change that?

If good players refuse to play for free, we'd all be doing a lot better. Anyway that has nothing to do with this, the artist and label are in violation of AFM contracts. Roy, go sic 'em, this is bullcrap.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

How much money did they make for each engagement you worked for free? If you were the only one doing so did you feel exploited? Did your working for free lead to paying work or other opportunities or was it "it will lead to your Big Break"?
From the vantage point of a few decades doing this I've learned a general rule that people will value you as much as you teach them to. If you are a lowball player they can get for little or nothing you are teaching them that they can always get you for little or nothing. I'm afraid I had to learn this the hard way.

Great quote. I wish every young musician could read this before it gets burned into their brain that they somehow improve their prospects by becoming the cheapest in town.......

[mndean]

Has anyone noticed one thing about the unpaid-intern situation? It's limited to those who don't need the money to live. If you're poor, you're out of luck getting the "networking" and other supposed perks of this arrangement. It's an obvious thing that seems to have gone unmentioned.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by mndean

Has anyone noticed one thing about the unpaid-intern situation? It's limited to those who don't need the money to live. If you're poor, you're out of luck getting the "networking" and other supposed perks of this arrangement. It's an obvious thing that seems to have gone unmentioned.

Also, ironically, the people involved and their infrastructure (management, record company, artist) can easily afford to pay the Musicians but are trying to avoid it. As I write this I am waiting on the final payment of some work that amounted to over $50,000 and affected dozens of local Musicians. The "producer" of this work drug his feet for two years and spent large amounts of time and legal fees trying to avoid paying. He obviously had no intention of paying and only the presence of mind of doing this under an AFM contract has allowed us to be paid. It would have been easier and cheaper to do the right thing.

[bolophonic]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

That's the path we're going. Companies are roping young people my age into thinking that the only way in is to be an indentured servant for 3 years. It is impossible to enter a skill these days without needing 3-5 years experience. Sad...because I know people including myself who would be fit for those jobs.

Actually, I would encourage anyone to seek out a legit internship/apprentice program in order to break into a field that suits them. In my case, I was able to transfer my existing skills and complete my training in both fields in under a year. I could have racked up plenty of debt trying to learn by taking classes, instead, I was trained on the job while making $10-11 an hour. The incentive was to work hard, minimize mistakes and double that pay as soon as possible.

When it comes time, I will definitely encourage my son to do something similar, because an entry level job in a skilled trade will always beat a minimum wage job in fast food or sitting in a mall kiosk.

[pan1k]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

How much money did they make for each engagement you worked for free? If you were the only one doing so did you feel exploited? Did your working for free lead to paying work or other opportunities or was it "it will lead to your Big Break"?
From the vantage point of a few decades doing this I've learned a general rule that people will value you as much as you teach them to. If you are a lowball player they can get for little or nothing you are teaching them that they can always get you for little or nothing. I'm afraid I had to learn this the hard way.

They didn't make much at all. But they have financial backing from a management team. And more of leading to big breaks. I was able to meet / work with the whos who. I recorded at the Palms here in Vegas, got to me LMfAO. Not exactly important to us true musicians but it was good fun. Also got to be intimate with members of the Cab and Panic at the Disco. A few bigger name acts here. And frankly it put me on the radar of the local scene as before no one really knew who I was . Not a dime out of my pocket and all I had to do was learn a few pop ballads. I agree with you though. And thanks for the insight.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by pan1k

They didn't make much at all. But they have financial backing from a management team. And more of leading to big breaks. I was able to meet / work with the whos who. I recorded at the Palms here in Vegas, got to me LMfAO. Not exactly important to us true musicians but it was good fun. Also got to be intimate with members of the Cab and Panic at the Disco. A few bigger name acts here. And frankly it put me on the radar of the local scene as before no one really knew who I was . Not a dime out of my pocket and all I had to do was learn a few pop ballads. I agree with you though. And thanks for the insight.

No problem. It's weird that they didn't pay you that small amount that the band members made. Certainly you didn't stand to gain as much from the experience as a sub. Of course, if you were auditioning that's a whole other thing.
Once again, if they were recording at The Palms Studio they probably paid the Studio, Engineer, etc. unless this was being done as a favor to Band or Management (it is not unheard of for a Studio to comp down time for a New Act, particularly if one of their own Second Engineers/Interns wants to bring them in for recording). I've definitely been able to negotiate getting paid in the circumstance of being a sub in these situations and that's more the done thing, IME.

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

...
Certainly you didn't stand to gain as much from the experience as a sub.
...

That, right there, is the reason I charge more as a sub than I often make as a regular member. As a "principal" in the enterprise called a band, I have gains & losses that persist beyond any specific performance. I have "skin in the game", so to speak.

As a sub, I have only that one engagement to profit from (for whatever "profit" means to me at that time). Any future success on the band's part has nothing to do with me & I gain nothing from it. Others' MMV, but in my opinion I'm there for myself, period. That said, I do have friends (that I trust, and know will not try to screw me over) that I will make handshake deals with, accept "share" pay, etc.

If somebody thinks I'm a mercenary for having that attitude, I take that as a compliment! I love working with mercenaries - they take care of business, know what to do, & value their own time as much as I value mine. It's the "true believers" that are trouble.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

If somebody thinks I'm a mercenary for having that attitude, I take that as a compliment! I love working with mercenaries - they take care of business, know what to do, & value their own time as much as I value mine. It's the "true believers" that are trouble.

Anytime a Tony Levin, Nathan East, Guy Pratt or Randy Jackson plays with Peter Gabriel, Eric Clapton, Pink Floyd or Journey that's their mindset. I don't call it "mercenary", I call it being a Professional Musician and Sideman.

[pan1k]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

No problem. It's weird that they didn't pay you that small amount that the band members made. Certainly you didn't stand to gain as much from the experience as a sub. Of course, if you were auditioning that's a whole other thing.
Once again, if they were recording at The Palms Studio they probably paid the Studio, Engineer, etc. unless this was being done as a favor to Band or Management (it is not unheard of for a Studio to comp down time for a New Act, particularly if one of their own Second Engineers/Interns wants to bring them in for recording). I've definitely been able to negotiate getting paid in the circumstance of being a sub in these situations and that's more the done thing, IME.

they paid the engineer with funds that they had accumulated through their management agreement. im not sure on the symnatics of it all but I got to record there. and had fun doing it.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Darrow

Without knowing specifics, it seems different because this is not part of an established, formalized process of introduction into a career, like Law or Medicine, or even Teaching, that the intern is not yet qualified for.

When I was an intern (Computer Engineering) I was just a worker cog in the machine.

I did the exact same work, under the exact same conditions, as the degreed engineers did.

I just made a lot less money (about half).

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

This is like Lucasfilms/Disney trying to staff a picture shoot with grips/cameramen/best boys, etc. from the UCLA Film School Interns.

If they can get the quality they want from those film school interns, seems like a smart business decision.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by aborgman

If they can get the quality they want from those film school interns, seems like a smart business decision.

Not for the workers whose jobs are displaced. Then it becomes more of the race to the bottom with everyone eventually carrying their own personal tip bucket to be paid and everyone reduced to beggars. Plus, it violates collective bargaining agreements within the Motion Picture Industry.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Not for the workers whose jobs are displaced. Then it becomes more of the race to the bottom with everyone eventually carrying their own personal tip bucket to be paid and everyone reduced to beggars.

Nah - as is always the case in capitalism: if you've got a skill/talent that is:

1) In high demand
2) In low supply

You'll get payed just fine.

The problem is, folks have this delusion that just because they worked really hard at something and spent lots of time/money doing so - they should be rewarded. Sorry - there is no inherent worth. If they can find someone who can do the same job for less (or free) it's within their fiduciary duty to do so.

Skills and talents are ONLY worth what a customer is willing to pay for them, nothing more and nothing less.

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Plus, it violates collective bargaining agreements within the Motion Picture Industry.

Without seeing the actual documents myself, I can't say... but considering it is a right to work state you're in, I suspect that like most non-disclosure agreements and non-compete clauses in my industry - they aren't legally enforceable.

[Roy Vogt]

Aborgman, by our exchange my guess is that bass is a hobby/avocation subsidized by your IT gig. How would you feel about your job being outsourced to a very willing, smart and capable College Senior from Stanford for free as his internship? Unlike your IT internship, these are unpaid and not reduced pay internships. As an IT guy the apocryphal stories of Software Engineers in India happily and competently working your job for 17K a year come to mind.
Remember, these are unpaid positions and from what I can gather from conversing with my student they haven't even thought carefully through about working with a University's internship program. They have just thought as far as 'let's get some college kids to work for free."
The record company at least has collective bargaining agreements. A company that is really cavalier about this stuff finds themselves on the "Unfair/Do Not Work For" list and will not be able to use the best Nashville Musicians on their recordings.
Happy to further clarify things.

[preside]

Are these people idiots. All it takes is for someone to see the "intern" bassist, find out he's working for free, offer him a paid gig and away he goes shutting down the prima donna mid tour. Hell I would take this gig get them dependant on me , wait for the right moment right before a big gig or showcase then walk. Just to screw them over.

[Roy Vogt]

FYI, ABC is filming the series Nashville here and every job is Union except some extras in crowd scenes in this right to work state. If Lucas/Disney hired interns for Union jobs they would be bringing in Scabs and all the SAG/AFTRA talent would strike in solidarity. You might be able to replace Natalie Portman with Suzy Sophomore Drama Intern, but would anyone want to see the movie?

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Aborgman, by our exchange my guess is that bass is a hobby/avocation subsidized by your IT gig.

I don't do IT.

I'm an Electrical/Computer Engineer.

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

How would you feel about your job being outsourced to a very willing, smart and capable College Senior from Stanford for free as his internship?

I'd feel that if I couldn't offer a value difference commensurate with the salary difference, the company was making a smart business decision.

I'd feel bad about MYSELF for my failure to differentiate myself enough from free help through my skills or talents, but the company is just making a business decision.

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Unlike your IT internship, these are unpaid and not reduced pay internships. As an IT guy the apocryphal stories of Software Engineers in India happily and competently working your job for 17K a year come to mind.

...and if I can't provide enough value to differentiate myself from that $17K/year guy in India, then I deserve to lose my position.

Seeing as I've been competing with (and working with) H1B visa holders (India, Israel, Iran, Malaysia, China, etc.) and nationals from those countries (my previous employer had design offices in Malaysia, Israel, India, China...) for my entire career tells me that (so far) I've managed to keep a competitive edge on those folks. In the future if I fail to do so - I'll lose my job to 'em.

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Remember, these are unpaid positions and from what I can gather from conversing with my student they haven't even thought carefully through about working with a University's internship program. They have just thought as far as 'let's get some college kids to work for free."

They HAVE thought it through - that is WHY they went with 'let's get some college kids to work for free'.

It may be a poor choice long term, but I doubt it was one made without thought.

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

The record company at least has collective bargaining agreements.

...but are these students party to them, are they legally binding on interns, etc., etc.?

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

A company that is really cavalier about this stuff finds themselves on the "Unfair/Do Not Work For" list and will not be able to use the best Nashville Musicians on their recordings.

Sure - and I suspect that realistically that is the ONLY recourse folks have. I doubt there is any law being broken or covenant being breached by what they are attempting to do.