Unpaid Intern Musicians?!?

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

FYI, ABC is filming the series Nashville here and every job is Union except some extras in crowd scenes in this right to work state. If Lucas/Disney hired interns for Union jobs they would be bringing in Scabs and all the SAG/AFTRA talent would strike in solidarity. You might be able to replace Natalie Portman with Suzy Sophomore Drama Intern, but would anyone want to see the movie?

Probably not - but do you think the musicians community is strong enough to do that, and there is a small enough pool of talent to fill backing/studio positions for cheesy Nashville pop acts?

If so - they'll suffer long term for their actions. If not, they make more money.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Probably not - but do you think the musicians community is strong enough to do that, and there is a small enough pool of talent to fill backing/studio positions for cheesy Nashville pop acts?

If so - they'll suffer long term for their actions. If not, they make more money.

In Nashville the answer would be yes.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

In Nashville the answer would be yes.

Then that is the answer. You make it hard enough for them to work in Nashville that they can't.

Now - that probably just means they go somewhere else and do the same thing, but at least you've stood up to it.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Then that is the answer. You make it hard enough for them to work in Nashville that they can't.

Now - that probably just means they go somewhere else and do the same thing, but at least you've stood up to it.

That would be really awkward considering the Artist, Management and Label are all located here.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

That would be really awkward considering the Artist, Management and Label are all located here.

If there is money to be made, that can all be easily fixed.

Being that this is the music business, and there is a 999,999/1,000,000 chance the act will never make money that amounts to anything - it's unlikely they'll bother with the investment.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by aborgman

If there is money to be made, that can all be easily fixed.

Being that this is the music business, and there is a 999,999/1,000,000 chance the act will never make money that amounts to anything - it's unlikely they'll bother with the investment.

Trust me, the few hundred or thousands they'll save by ripping off an "intern musician" wouldn't me that much motivation.
It's frustrating to me that it costs so little to do the right thing, but people still go to great lengths to do so to save a few bucks.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by aborgman

If there is money to be made, that can all be easily fixed.

It's interesting that you mention this. I remember Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) a Religious Cable Channel here in Hendersonville wanted to hire a house band a decade or so ago. They promised 50K a year, benefits, etc. The kicker? The players would have to be available for any and all TV production, albums done by TBN hosts/Artists, etc. and would have to resign from the Musicians Union so that scale rates wouldn't apply. That means they were wanting people who would be willing to be paid about 40-50% of what would be paid under Union Contract. The deal fell apart pretty quickly. The A Team guys even in the Gospel side of things couldn't be bothered.
One of the last bastions of "off the Card" recording in Nashville was the Big Gospel Labels (Benson, Word, etc.). We owe a lot to the guys who risked losing the $200 a record that they were making (Ouch!) to say no. The labels tried but they just couldn't get players out of the Road Bands who could cut the gig and thus the Limited Pressing Scales were born as a compromise. I think it's sad when I talked to a good friend and great bassist who was in the thick of this "off the card" stuff when he realized what he had given up in pension payments at retirement to do that.

[agreatheight]

The unpaid intern is present in a lot of business models. The truth is that it benefits the "employer" most. But these opportunities can lead to others, including ones with pay, so you cannot generally dismiss the opportunity immediately. If the person going into the situation understands what they are getting into, and has no better prospects lined up, why not consider it? Unpaid internships give experience, enhance the resume, and give opportunities for networking.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

The unpaid intern is present in a lot of business models. The truth is that it benefits the "employer" most. But these opportunities can lead to others, including ones with pay, so you cannot generally dismiss the opportunity immediately. If the person going into the situation understands what they are getting into, and has no better prospects lined up, why not consider it? Unpaid internships give experience, enhance the resume, and give opportunities for networking.

And there are plenty of legit internships here in Nashville through Belmont, MTSU and Trevecca. These allow students to work in the Industry, make contacts and do all of those wonderful things. Many of my students have done that and it's a great thing. When you starring approaching college age Musicians about playing with a signed Label Act as an "internship" even though it's not under the auspices of a University it gets a little skeevy and exploitive in my book.

[Roy Vogt]

OK, I just had a conversation with another student bassist who auditioned for this "internship."
Here's the deal: They want a student band to rehearse for free with the Artist 1 to 2 times a week at SIR for their internship and "meeting some important people at the Record Label". Bear in mind, it's NOT their Record Deal, there are no promises made, and the normal protocol is to hire Pro Players to back up the inexperienced Artist (who is signed to the Record Label). So, what they are trying to do is to get a free rehearsal band of eager college kids to rehearse with this act they've given money to in hopes that they can be there when "bigger things happen".
My more experienced student said this creeped him out and felt wrong so he's not going to do it. The Union will definitely get involved now, since it's a "playing internship". Yuck!
Oh well, if this is cool I need a couple of "floor interns" to come over to my house and install some hardwood laminate flooring for me! I can introduce you to Victor Wooten! C'mon, it'll make your career! Then I need a couple of window and painting interns! Sheesh!

[richfirstbass]

Quote:

Aborgman:

I don't do IT.

I'm an Electrical/Computer Engineer.

endQuote

Aborgman,

I'm curious, if you were the Artist in the OP under the same business conditions, would you ask someone to "intern" for free and justify it as a business decision?

By the way, I'm also an engineer in Silicon Valley of many decades. If you think your talent is enough to keep you from being replaced by a cheaper foreigner or a US citizen younger than you, you may have a rude awakening when one of your employers decides to make a "business decision" that has little to do with your talent as it does your cost. If you don't, count yourself as fortunate.

The companies I work and worked for had paid interns, but not for the purpose of gaining cheap labor. Interns cost more than their salaries, because they have to partner with a regular employee who is tasked with not only their own work, but "making work" that the intern can do and learn by. Also mentoring is expected. I've had interns under my care.

The big plus comes, when out of that crop of young faces, there are those that are hired as regular employees once they graduate. They're now familiar with the company and are much better prepared. Also, the companies recognized that providing positive intern experiences translates to other kids to try to get into the program, providing a feeder system of bright talent.

I have in my past been a professional musician. I now am "semi-pro" but have taken the stance of "no free gigs" and am happy and better for it. Silicon Valley is presently a very bad place for professional musicians (restaurants and bars in particular), which in part is due to people willing to play for free or pay to play. However, there are professional musicians that I work with making a go of it full time, while maintaining a professional approach and respect for their craft, talent, and time.

The musicians that I know that play for free or small dollars are stuck for years doing low paying gigs (even with a good skill set), primarily because they are known to be willing to do it. The musicians that hold the line on the pay issue get gigs. Maybe fewer gigs, but they end up with more money and a better outlook on their future than the guys with many "freebies" under their belt. THAT is good business.

Regards...

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by richfirstbass

Quote:

Aborgman:

I don't do IT.

I'm an Electrical/Computer Engineer.

endQuote

Aborgman,

By the way, I'm also an engineer in Silicon Valley of many decades. If you think your talent is enough to keep you from being replaced by a cheaper foreigner or a US citizen younger than you, you may have a rude awakening when one of your employers decides to make a "business decision" that has little to do with your talent as it does your cost. If you don't, count yourself as fortunate

Regards...

I can't thank you enough for that response. My wife has a degree in MIS and was working for an IT Shop of a large city government. They systematically ran off the older employees as they approached retirement age, out sourced, let go of people and brought them back as "consultants" with no benefits, the whole nasty nine yards. They particularly targeted those under Civil Service Protection to get rid of them. How well they worked or what they knew made absolutely no difference. It was "reduce the bottom line". Since I'm a Pro Bassist and Educator of some 4 decades at this point but not in the Computer/IT/Engineering field I knew what you were saying to be true from my wife's experience, but I didn't feel I had enough experience to respond. Thank you for saying what I was thinking!

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

The unpaid intern is present in a lot of business models. The truth is that it benefits the "employer" most. But these opportunities can lead to others, including ones with pay, so you cannot generally dismiss the opportunity immediately. If the person going into the situation understands what they are getting into, and has no better prospects lined up, why not consider it? Unpaid internships give experience, enhance the resume, and give opportunities for networking.

A friend called me about this situation about a week ago, we had a long conversation. While I get Roy's points, playing Devil's advocate I came up with much the same as above. It COULD be a big opportunity for a young musician. It COULD look very good on a resume. Here's one of the things I brought up...

I watched Puffy's "Making His Band" series. Did those people get paid? Jamareo Artis was on that. The next time I saw him was at the Grammys with Bruno Mars getting lots of face time. Did one have anything to do with the other?

I know making it that big is a rarity. I have no idea of all of the particulars of this situation. Is there an intended promotional component for the interns? If not have they explained WHY they need to be unpaid (though I thought I read they were to be paid for actual performances and not rehearsals)?

In a music world that runs the gamut from paid to play (that's what I always do), unpaid and at the other extreme pay to play I can see where being in the middle and trying to gain some experience wouldn't have to be seen as the worst case scenario... though few things teach more than a good old fashioned screwing. Like not being paid when you were supposed to.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I watched Puffy's "Making His Band" series. Did those people get paid? Jamareo Artis was on that. The next time I saw him was at the Grammys with Bruno Mars getting lots of face time. Did one have anything to do with the other?

I know making it that big is a rarity. I have no idea of all of the particulars of this situation. Is there an intended promotional component for the interns? If not have they explained WHY they need to be unpaid (though I thought I read they were to be paid for actual performances and not rehearsals)?

Hi Brad,
I don't know about Making the Band, but one of my students has a girlfriend who was on The X Factor and was in LA for a week. She didn't make the TV cut, but all her expenses were covered and she was paid about a Grand for her time for that week. I would guess most Reality Shows have paid components. Of course, all of Puffy's engineers and musicians and support people were paid. Since these interns are not Talent but support (it's not a Band, but a Singer with her sidemen) they have more in common with the backing musicians who were definitely paid.
As I later posted, I have subsequently found out that the "internship" consists of rehearsing for free with the Artist 1 or 2 days a week at SIR so she can get used to singing with a band. The going rate for that in Nashville is $25-50 an hour per Musician. The "internship" which is trying to recruit college musicians but not necessarily interns seems really exploitive to me. There is no commitment for dates, just a " you can meet some Industry Heavies and things may work out for you with this gig."

[bassfran]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

As I later posted, I have subsequently found out that the "internship" consists of rehearsing for free with the Artist 1 or 2 days a week at SIR so she can get used to singing with a band.

So nice to hear that she's paying her dues.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

kicker? The players would have to be available for any and all TV production, albums done by TBN hosts/Artists, etc. and would have to resign from the Musicians Union so that scale rates wouldn't apply.

If that was a term and condition of the deal, that has major ULP potential. Good luck explaining to an NLRB field examiner why you required someone to suspend their union activities as a condition of employment.

OK, I just had a conversation with another student bassist who auditioned for this "internship."
Here's the deal: They want a student band to rehearse for free with the Artist 1 to 2 times a week at SIR for their internship and "meeting some important people at the Record Label". Bear in mind, it's NOT their Record Deal, there are no promises made, and the normal protocol is to hire Pro Players to back up the inexperienced Artist (who is signed to the Record Label). So, what they are trying to do is to get a free rehearsal band of eager college kids to rehearse with this act they've given money to in hopes that they can be there when "bigger things happen".
My more experienced student said this creeped him out and felt wrong so he's not going to do it. The Union will definitely get involved now, since it's a "playing internship". Yuck!
Oh well, if this is cool I need a couple of "floor interns" to come over to my house and install some hardwood laminate flooring for me! I can introduce you to Victor Wooten! C'mon, it'll make your career! Then I need a couple of window and painting interns! Sheesh!

Yeah, that sounds very squiky to me. Your student made the right decision. At the end of the day, if this artist gets a deal, the band is probably not going to get picked up. So they did a bunch of free work under the pretense of being interns and all they get is an opportunity to put on their resume was they were this person's backing band back when she was a nobody.

Originally Posted by bassfran

So nice to hear that she's paying her dues

+ infinity. This whole thing has "bush leauge" written over it so much that it's almost satirical. I can only imagine that the artist in question is the Honey Boo Boo equivalent of an aspiring country star.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Hi Brad,
I don't know about Making the Band, but one of my students has a girlfriend who was on The X Factor and was in LA for a week. She didn't make the TV cut, but all her expenses were covered and she was paid about a Grand for her time for that week. I would guess most Reality Shows have paid components. Of course, all of Puffy's engineers and musicians and support people were paid. Since these interns are not Talent but support (it's not a Band, but a Singer with her sidemen) they have more in common with the backing musicians who were definitely paid.
As I later posted, I have subsequently found out that the "internship" consists of rehearsing for free with the Artist 1 or 2 days a week at SIR so she can get used to singing with a band. The going rate for that in Nashville is $25-50 an hour per Musician. The "internship" which is trying to recruit college musicians but not necessarily interns seems really exploitive to me. The is no commitment for dates, just a " you can meet some Industry Heavies and things may work out for you with this gig."

Hi Roy,
In the case of Puffy it was a singer (Puffy.. yeah, I know ) and his backing band. I think it was called "Making His Band". Basically a series about auditioning to play on his tour which AFAIK didn't happen.

I have a friend who did that show, I'll see if I can catch up with him.

Again, I see your points.


BTW I was part of a crew put together to back a local artist at a high profile venue. We did two rehearsals, nailed the music and how she wanted the show to go. A couple of days before the gig her management replaced the entire group of musicians for some "more affordable" ones. All feedback from that gig said she got what she paid for. Ah, karma.


We did get paid for the rehearsals.

[Joebone]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

Hi Brad,
I don't know about Making the Band, but one of my students has a girlfriend who was on The X Factor and was in LA for a week. She didn't make the TV cut, but all her expenses were covered and she was paid about a Grand for her time for that week. I would guess most Reality Shows have paid components. Of course, all of Puffy's engineers and musicians and support people were paid. Since these interns are not Talent but support (it's not a Band, but a Singer with her sidemen) they have more in common with the backing musicians who were definitely paid.
As I later posted, I have subsequently found out that the "internship" consists of rehearsing for free with the Artist 1 or 2 days a week at SIR so she can get used to singing with a band. The going rate for that in Nashville is $25-50 an hour per Musician. The "internship" which is trying to recruit college musicians but not necessarily interns seems really exploitive to me. The is no commitment for dates, just a " you can meet some Industry Heavies and things may work out for you with this gig."

What kind of industry heavies are going to be cruising SIR to check out a band of interns helping an "artist" get used to singing with a band? Doesn't sound like a scene that's going to generate any great breakthroughs for the interns.

We've all paid dues in different ways, and when I first started playing pro in the mid '70's I did non-scale stuff. But it was in contexts below the union's radar - I never saw any business reps show up at the salsa clubs in North Philly - or doing original music in small clubs.

And my first few recording sessions were freebies, but those were projects for friends, or friends of friends, hoping to land a deal. But once I had a bit of experience, no way was I going to continue giving it away. And even on those salsa gigs, I had parity with the other players (we were all exploited together, but that was the price if that was the music you wanted to play, on an undercapitalized ethnic scene).

Meanwhile, those few freebies led to road and recording work, a good deal of it overscale, that paid for much of my college and law school education and provided some great, great times.

So I would never criticize an aspiring musician for doing a little bit of cut-rate or free stuff to get exposure, particularly if working with friends who have skin in the game and no label or management support, or on a scene where no one does it for the money, but the musical exposure is superb, and you are not undercutting other, qualified folks who would otherwise be working the gig, or subverting genuine union jurisdiction.

This Nashville thing is none of the above. There apparently is a label and a budget, and the will to invest time and money in developing the "artist." The interns will not refine their skills but so much by playing with other interns, as opposed to playing with more accomplished folks, and who knows whether the music is worth a tinker's darn (BTW, how can this intern band thing proceed without a professional MD - who's gonna guide the interns, and provide continuity when the interns get ditched, so the "artist" has a guide?) This is work that apparently is covered by union contracts, and if the label is signatory to those agreements, then it sounds like a grievance to me.

This intern thing - across industries - is interesting. Well-run corporate programs, generally linked to college programs, do indeed serve a legitimate recruitment function, and there is the mentorship angle referenced by a techie poster above. Union apprentice positions provide wages, training and a cadre of staff available to do elementary work while they train at a reduced but reasonable rate - a win/win, as I see it. OTOH, free interns often get screwed, and the film and music industries have a long history of taking advantage of folks whose hunger to get onto the scene overwhelms common sense. A few of those folks do go on to have real careers, and their example feeds the beast, but it's tawdry and exploitive.

Ultimately, I'm not going to say there is a real clear line for young musicians when it comes to playing for free, especially in the world of clubs and bedroom studios. But the situation described in this thread certainly sounds over the line. I'm curious to see how this all turns out, and hope that the potential interns are not headed down the road toward exploitation and disappointment. And if the "artist" has a professional MD working this intern thing, well, that role is not the most karmically correct thing I've heard about in the last few years.

[Roy Vogt]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

Yeah, that sounds very squiky to me. Your student made the right decision. At the end of the day, if this artist gets a deal, the band is probably not going to get picked up. So they did a bunch of free work under the pretense of being interns and all they get is an opportunity to put on their resume was they were this person's backing band back when she was a nobody.

Sadly, the Artist already has a Record Label and Management. She should have a budget for these Musicians.

[Roy Vogt]

Did some searching back through some old email communication. Apparently, this is a Class/Internship Opportunity with more lecture/coursework/controlled and monitored activities than unsupervised rehearsals, still a little odd, but at least there are more Educational Components to this than previously thought and this was being presented to me somewhat incompletely by my students. It's still pretty unusual, but I can see the parties involved trying to make this a positive experience under some Educational Auspices. So, it's still odd-but may work out OK. I will let you all know a little later about how all this plays out.