Unpaid Intern Musicians?!?

[Brad Johnson]

Cool.

Joebone, how do you know who saw you on your gigs?

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by richfirstbass

I'm curious, if you were the Artist in the OP under the same business conditions, would you ask someone to "intern" for free and justify it as a business decision?

I wouldn't. It seems the epitome of "penny wise, pound foolish" to me.

By the way, I'm also an engineer in Silicon Valley of many decades. If you think your talent is enough to keep you from being replaced by a cheaper foreigner or a US citizen younger than you, you may have a rude awakening when one of your employers decides to make a "business decision" that has little to do with your talent as it does your cost. If you don't, count yourself as fortunate.

I think that so far my talent has exceede my premium enough to keep me working at jobs I like for reasonable salaries. If it fails to be enough in the future, then I have failed.

I also got my butt out of the chip industry, and got a university job.

The companies I work and worked for had paid interns, but not for the purpose of gaining cheap labor. Interns cost more than their salaries, because they have to partner with a regular employee who is tasked with not only their own work, but "making work" that the intern can do and learn by. Also mentoring is expected. I've had interns under my care.

The big plus comes, when out of that crop of young faces, there are those that are hired as regular employees once they graduate. They're now familiar with the company and are much better prepared. Also, the companies recognized that providing positive intern experiences translates to other kids to try to get into the program, providing a feeder system of bright talent.

I agree the finding of future employees is a big plus, but I'll also say that MY internship had little mentoring and lots of work... But the I was at that place known for working people until they quit also.

I have in my past been a professional musician. I now am "semi-pro" but have taken the stance of "no free gigs" and am happy and better for it. Silicon Valley is presently a very bad place for professional musicians (restaurants and bars in particular), which in part is due to people willing to play for free or pay to play. However, there are professional musicians that I work with making a go of it full time, while maintaining a professional approach and respect for their craft, talent, and time.

The musicians that I know that play for free or small dollars are stuck for years doing low paying gigs (even with a good skill set), primarily because they are known to be willing to do it. The musicians that hold the line on the pay issue get gigs. Maybe fewer gigs, but they end up with more money and a better outlook on their future than the guys with many "freebies" under their belt. THAT is good business.

Regards...

Absolutely. I NEVER do free gigs, not worth it.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

How well they worked or what they knew made absolutely no difference. It was "reduce the bottom line".

That generally isn't my experience.

IME the folks who make 20% more and know/do 50% more stay. Those who make 50% more and know/do less than 50% more (usually due to getting raises for longevity instead of performance) get tossed.

It's a reason I'm not a fan of seniority based raises.

[hernameisrio]

Okay, you guys have inspired me to post an excerpt from an essay I wrote last year as my reply. The first part of the essay consists of Craigslist searches for "real" jobs where I substituted the word "intern," contrasted with search results for the term "unpaid intern" and the similarities between the required job skills/tasks for both paid and unpaid work.

It's long, but maybe it'll make sense to some. Maybe others will disagree. That's okay too. Anyway, here are some of my thoughts on the issue of internships in the entertainment industry. Key points in bold.

-----

Starting in the fall of 2009, I worked for free for about 6-7 months at a recording studio in the hopes that it would lead to paid work. It did not. I did many tasks which would have gotten me paid at any other job; the LEAST of which included answering the phone, keeping the place clean, and doing an inventory of various pieces of music gear...the MOST of which included assisting the engineer by setting up microphones and running Pro Tools. Not only did I not get paid, but it cost me money to get to that job via subway, and I still had to eat once in a while. I was not compensated for my subway fare or my lunch. So for almost a year, I busted my @$$ for nothing, and I ate a lot of peanut butter and jelly.

It comes as no surprise then, that when I recently found out about another "studio" seeking engineers and was told that I would have to work for free for a few sessions on a "trial basis," I pretty much wanted to throw something.

A trial basis? What, suddenly my resume is not enough?! With every other paying job I've done, people have taken it in good faith that I have the skills necessary to do the job, and they have hired me. Sometimes they have decided that I am not quite cut out for it, and I have been let go...it happens to the best of us. The bottom line is that I've never had to "try out" for any other job. To truly illustrate how absurd this mentality is, let me apply it once more to "normal" jobs.

"Hey, we really need a barista. We see that your resume says that you worked at Starbuck's for a year, but we haven't seen you serve coffee yet or make drinks, so why don't you come in and work for free for a few days so we can decide if we like you? Then MAYBE we'll pay you."

"Hey, we really need a secretary. It says here that you know Excel and Word and that you type 100 words a minute. Even though you took a touch-typing class and interned at an office last summer, we still won't really believe that you know what you're doing until you do it for us. So why don't we try you out for free, and if it seems like you can do the job that we know you're already capable of and are just too cheap to pay for right off the bat, maybe we'll hire you."

I told this studio that the minute I press 3 on the numeric keypad in Pro Tools, I want to be paid for my work. I don't think this is too much to ask. I've never thought it was too much to ask. I appreciate the concept behind starting people as interns and moving them into higher positions. What I don't appreciate, is when I have to fight to get paid for something that other people get paid for elsewhere when THEY do it, just because they've happened to be doing it longer. Does it really matter if I've been working in Pro Tools for five years or ten years if I can do the job?

I was then treated to a spiel about how all the "engineers" who work there get paid, and that they just want to "try me out" first, all with this condescending attitude of basically thinking that I don't know my @$$ from my elbow; "We don't want the clients to wonder if the person we hired, doesn't know what they're doing." How is that my f******* problem?! If you're so worried about it that you have to TELL me this, hire somebody else and see if I care! Give em a blindfold if you're so concerned! What's it to them if they're paying you...and you don't even want to pay me to do my job?!

I hung up, furious, and thought about what it really does to this industry when the people in it are tripping over themselves to work for free just so they can get their foot in a door which is rapidly closing. When did getting paid for labor become a privilege and not a right? At the studio I work at now, I get paid on sessions, and everything else I do is just to help out, to pitch in, to keep the place running. I don't get paid for those hours because those are my hours to give back a little, and I genuinely enjoy it. It's just how things turned out, and it's been working perfectly. I think when I first started there, I might have assisted on one session where I got paid a flat rate, and since then, I've gotten paid hourly. I still had to work really hard to prove that I was capable. I still don't generally get paid for setup time. There is still an element of being in a certain place on the ladder, and that's fine by me, because I am still recognized for what I am there. It's hard work but it's an exciting challenge, and the money I make there, helps motivate me to continue to excel...because it says to me that I am worth it to them.

But what does it do to a person when they basically "learn" that they have to put their nose to the grindstone 60+ unpaid hours a week to "prove" that they can do a job so that MAYBE they can get hired? I have nothing against traditional apprenticeships, where you work for free in exchange for skills you can use...where you are given a structured opportunity to learn, with the inherent EXPECTATION that you will someday step up and take over. But I do have something against the majority of internships, which exploit people who are desperate for a "real" position, and disguise real work- work which constitutes pay- as "interning." And apparently whoever rises to the top, is the one who can deal with working for free, the longest.

This is unfair because it automatically cuts a line through the people who are fortunate enough to have a financial cushion, and the people who aren't. So if you're older and you've been out of school for a while and can't call up Mom and Dad to pony up the rent money, there goes your chance. If you're single and don't have a boyfriend, girlfriend, or spouse to borrow money from and share the load, there goes your chance. If you paid your own way through school and have to work a crap retail job just to continue paying off your loans and can't find three days a week to spend at the studio working for free, there goes your chance. Who are we cutting out of the deal when we shut these people out and basically deny them an opportunity to succeed in this business? How many engineers, editors, creative directors, and designers have had the door slammed in their face because of being older than 25, being single, or being poor? Does anybody realize what that looks like to the rest of the world? Doesn't anybody want to do something about it?

The other thing that these studios and media companies are failing to consider, is the simple fact that once their precious interns leave the nest, it will likely be even harder to survive. Freelancing is not easy. Talk about busting your @$$ to prove yourself. And when you're coming from a background where getting paid is a privilege, you automatically become prey to people who will low-ball you and nickel-and-dime you just to get what they want out of you. Because ANY money is better than NO money, right?

I would say the strongest argument for unpaid internships is that it's a Learning Experience. Huh, well, I don't know about most of you guys, but I already HAD my Learning Experience. It was called College...and I'M PAYING FOR IT RIGHT NOW. In fact, I almost defaulted on my loans because I couldn't seem to manage to get paid for the work I do. So on top of that, I now have to spend half a work-week doing somebody else's dirty work and not making a single cent? I don't know, man. I am by no means devaluing the things I did learn while at that studio, nor am I condemning the idea of an internship completely. I'm just saying that we seem to have crossed this line where an awful lot of the things we require of our interns, are VERY similar to things we require of our paid employees. So where does that leave us?

1. Pay them, even once in a while.

In today's rat race of instant gratification, "fast and cheap" ********, this is hardly feasible. But if we really wanted to hold true to the "old skool" structure that most internships were initially based on, we would make sure that our interns are learning as they go...steadily working them up towards paid jobs by easing them into tasks that would earn them a stipend. If you just keep promising "perks" and "experience," how many people are really gonna show up at your !@$!@ studio, you cheap @@$!? Sorry, excuse me. I think you know what I'm trying to say here. But if you throw them fifty bucks once in a while and challenge them with a specific task ("Edit this reel," "clean up the vocals in this session," "stretch these canvases," "resize these photos"), they will feel worthwhile. FIFTY LOUSY BUCKS. Is it so hard??

2. Provide them with a structure in which they can learn the specific skills necessary to do the job.

Instead of just showing them where the coffee machine is and how to answer the phone, make sure they are learning how to step up into whatever position they might take on next. After all, I didn't intern at a recording studio so I could get really, really good at washing dishes and making coffee, did I? Again, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but come on now. A lot of people in charge, seem to resent the idea of having to teach other people. They just want things to magically happen. They seem to just expect everybody to magically know what to do.

All it really takes is a few days where the interns can be shown what comes after the phone and the coffee machine. This provides a sense of context and of being "needed." It makes the intern feel that someday, he/she too can step into the hot seat and do some REAL work. To the credit of the studio I worked at prior to where I am now, there was somewhat of an effort to provide hands-on experience, and those days were very useful. If I owned a studio, I would make it a hands-on, collaborative effort. I would make sure nobody felt left out. Not because I'm a bleeding-heart romantic liberal, but because I believe in work environments which are fair and productive and balanced. Well, and also because I'm a bleeding-heart romantic liberal. But I digress...

I don't really have any concise feelings about my own experience as an intern. They are very mixed. I am grateful for the chances I did have, the people I met, the ways in which I was able to expand my social circle a little bit and help others in the process. I am resentful for the fact that I didn't get paid for work that in my opinion, deserves pay...that I had to lie to my parents so that they could lend me money for rent so that I could continue interning there. Their constant question: "When will you start getting paid?" and my constant, near-to-tears answer: "Soon...real soon." I am resentful for the fact that despite showing up nearly every day and doing everything I was told to do and then some, I never got any more time in that control room than anybody else. For no reason. There was nothing I did to condemn me to sitting at the front desk every day and answering the phones...it just happened, maybe because I'm not some super-eager type A extrovert, maybe because I have a good phone voice.

I was also intimidated by the idea that I had to ASK for knowledge and experience which, as an unpaid intern, should quite frankly have been thrown out there to me a little more visibly, especially on slow days when there were no sessions. I was strung along by promises which never came to fruition as I struggled, broke and miserable, feeling in the end that nothing I did, mattered...because if it did, I would be paid for it. I regret not being a different type of person, the type of person who is perhaps not so jaded and cynical when it comes to things like labor and money...the type of person who might have lasted longer there. But I just couldn't stand it anymore.

I have no doubt that the studio I talked to recently will find some eager, gee-whiz, 20-nothing kid with a trust fund to sit there and be a Pro Tools monkey for next to nothing, and that they probably won't be calling me again. I, however, feel that I have dodged a bullet. I know that someday, that scary feeling I get when I stand up for myself, will go away...and I can at least feel like I've taken the path of least resistance. So maybe I'm missing out on the chance to make $50 a session "engineering" (that's FIVE DOLLARS AN HOUR!!!) at their "studio." Yeah, well. Better a potential short-term blow to my wallet, than a longer-term blow to my self esteem, which has already been through quite enough, thank you very much.

To everyone in the entertainment industry: learn to draw the line...stand your ground...and make it clear that you are more than what other people decide to pay you. Maybe we'd move in a better direction if we started reporting the shadier folks to the Department of Labor; I don't know, and that's not necessarily a crusade I want to start. But all I can say is, even humility and hard work have their limits....we all have to survive in this business, and that means demanding fair pay for the work that we do. This is not meant to be an expose' on internships...it is not my intention to blow the whistle...I'm just saying, there's a fine line between free labor, and doing something for nothing with the intent of getting valuable knowledge in return. There seem to be a disproportionate amount of internships out there which don't really offer any of the "learning experience" that they claim to...instead, it's just an excuse to work us all to death.

The system is broken, and it lies crumpled at the bottom of the ladder that is the entertainment industry. In a world where people don't even want to pay artists for their songs, how do we fix this?

[jeffbonny]

As a stagehand in a theatre or roadhouse it's pretty common to come in and shadow for one unpaid 4 hour call to familiarize yourself with the venue especially if you are going for a department head or assistant head gig. In this situation you are generally expected to observe rather than actually do any real work. This seems pretty reasonable compared to some of the horror stories people are sharing here. I know there's a lot of anti-union sentiment around but it's because IATSE has some muscle that minimum standards are observed even in non-union environments.

[hernameisrio]

Hey jeff, I don't disagree. I think there are always exceptions. If it's more of a shadow/apprentice mentality where things are well-structured and the time demand is not excessive (i.e. 4 hours is better than 14!), then it's not so bad. I just think that in general, the concept of an intern/apprentice has been abused lately.

[Lady Kayri]

Agreed. If you are an intern, it is supposed to be a learning experience. You aren't supposed to become the unpaid janitor / receptionist, while not learning diddly squat about the job you are supposedly going to eventually get hired to perform.

[willgroove2]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

Hi Roy,
In the case of Puffy it was a singer (Puffy.. yeah, I know ) and his backing band. I think it was called "Making His Band". Basically a series about auditioning to play on his tour which AFAIK didn't happen.

I have a friend who did that show, I'll see if I can catch up with him.

Again, I see your points.


BTW I was part of a crew put together to back a local artist at a high profile venue. We did two rehearsals, nailed the music and how she wanted the show to go. A couple of days before the gig her management replaced the entire group of musicians for some "more affordable" ones. All feedback from that gig said she got what she paid for. Ah, karma.


We did get paid for the rehearsals.

Some of my younger musician friends auditioned for making his band and actually made it through the initial audition but balked when they read the contract with all the limitations involved. Add to the fact that end the end the tour never happened and the guy's who turned down the offer did the right thing IMO. Jamerio got on peoples radar in LA through that situation the other finalist Rawbiz was already established touring with act's but was trying to raise his profile,that situation was totally different that the one Roy's talking about

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by willgroove2

Some of my younger musician friends auditioned for making his band and actually made it through the initial audition but balked when they read the contract with all the limitations involved. Add to the fact that end the end the tour never happened and the guy's who turned down the offer did the right thing IMO. Jamerio got on peoples radar in LA through that situation the other finalist Rawbiz was already established touring with act's but was trying to raise his profile,that situation was totally different that the one Roy's talking about

One of my friends ended up in the show.

The situation Roy's talking about turned out to be something other than what it first appeared.

[Roy Vogt]

So did the contestants on Making the Band get paid? Just curious if you found out, Brad.

[Big Brother]

I work with a few pro athletes and they do this all the time.

People line up to give things to those with fame and they do it with a gleam in their eye. This happens because folks at the top of their professions know they have a powerful currency to trade with: Proximity to success. People are like flies on a goat when success in any field is involved.

The affiliation though often does lead to real opportunity for people if they play it right, to meet influential people you have to be around them. Once seen on the 'inside' you are vetted and doors can open up to other opportunity if you are good and work hard. That is why the practice persists.

I am not condoning it though. Just explaining why.

The best analogy would be pro athletes playing for free, just because they should be happy to be on the field in front of everyone and be associated with the team uniform. And, maybe someone will like how they play and pay them someday. But why would owners pay them to play in the future if someone else is willing to play for free...

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Roy Vogt

So did the contestants on Making the Band get paid? Just curious if you found out, Brad.

Haven't contacted him yet, Roy.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by Big Brother

I work with a few pro athletes and they do this all the time.

People line up to give things to those with fame and they do it with a gleam in their eye. This happens because folks at the top of their professions know they have a powerful currency to trade with: Proximity to success. People are like flies on a goat when success in any field is involved.

The affiliation though often does lead to real opportunity for people if they play it right, to meet influential people you have to be around them. Once seen on the 'inside' you are vetted and doors can open up to other opportunity if you are good and work hard. That is why the practice persists.

I am not condoning it though. Just explaining why.

The best analogy would be pro athletes playing for free, just because they should be happy to be on the field in front of everyone and be associated with the team uniform. And, maybe someone will like how they play and pay them someday. But why would owners pay them to play in the future if someone else is willing to play for free...

I honestly don't see the analogy. Pro athletes? The student aren't professionals AFAIK

[lowfreq33]

I know a couple of people who have been on competition based reality shows, and both got a per diem, no pay. Both were prime time major network shows, not cable.

[soulman969]

Until players stop playing gigs where the rest of the band or band leader is paid for free just for the exposure it will always be a problem. I left two bands in the last year because I wouldn't play "for the door" when we didn't control the door or play a tip jar gig.

Playing to gratis for charity fundraisers is one thing but playing for nothing or next to nothing so that another can benefit 100% from my work and my experience doesn't cut it and I'm no Nashville pro.

Thanks for the read Roy. Sounds like the manipulation of the young and inexperienced runs rampant at times with certain artists. Makes me wish there was a way to end it but I admit I don't know how.

[stagebanter]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

I'm well informed enough to read past the inflamatory nature of that Business Insider "article." I don't read Huffington Post for business information.....

So, what are you saying? Are you saying that the information contained in those articles is all lies, made up by the people who wrote them? Because the thing is, those articles have facts backing them up, and unless you are saying that they straight-up invented numbers (which is a very serious accusation), I have to confess I kind of think you're trying to avoid grappling with a heavy issue.

[Big Brother]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I honestly don't see the analogy. Pro athletes? The student aren't professionals AFAIK

If they are good enough to play on the same stage as top music professionals, they are just as good as working professionals. The analogy holds as I see it.

This point regarding being onstage with pro musicians was covered earlier in the thread. A true intern would never be put on a professional stage if they didn't already have 'pro' level ability.

The next time I go to a concert and see Sting playing alongside interns learning their scales, I will concede the point.

[Brad Johnson]

You are right. "Professional" has nothing to do with actually being one. I stand corrected.

[franksgbass]

Here's the thing. They won't get a very good bass player if they are offering no money at all. They will get a young woman or man who needs the experience and will probably benefit from the situation by learning the ropes. Then they will be able to move forward and get a paying gig. The OP posted his initial question in Janek Gwizdala's forum asking for his opinion. He politely declined but did mention he does not agree with all the "haters" in this thread. I thought about that for a moment, as I am reading his book, which has tons of great info on being a musician in this day and age, highly recommended.
Here's the thing. In my opinion, not every musician these days deserves to get paid. Sorry, but its true. If you spend enough time with your instrument and really have something to say, then most likely you will get paid. But to assume that every person that could read bass clef deserves a paying gig is just not with the current times. It's gonna take more than that these days. That said, maybe this "intern" position, while not exactly fair (but when has the music business been fair) could be beneficial to younger players still searching for there voice on the instrument. This just my opinion of course, formed by the info that ive accumulated being a working musician these days. Please do not take offense.

[JAUQO III-X]

It's kool to treat musicians like crap until it happens to you.

Some posters in this thread seem to feel this way.