Various questions concerning sound, amplification and sound reinforcement

[pedro]

I’m not quite sure that this is the right place for this thread but I have some questions about sound. I would love to hear from anybody that wants to participate but I’d truly love to hear from those of you with some sound reinforcement experience. Here goes ~

1. Is it possible to dial in the sound we want AND get that sound out to the audience?
2. In a situation without PA support, what are the common mistakes us bass players make in projecting a solid bass sound to the audience?
3. In a situation where there is PA support, what tends to be the single biggest mistake that sound reinforcement folks tend to make these days?
4. I find that sometimes I hear the same rig, same settings, same bass differently. Am I going crazy or is there something else that can happen to the ear that might explain why it sound differently?
5. Similar to question 4, I find that just standing in a different spot can make a huge difference to what I hear. With that in mind, what chance is there that a good overall bass sound will ever be projected to the majority of the audience in a ‘no support’ vs. ‘PA support’ situations?

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by pedro

I’m not quite sure that this is the right place for this thread but I have some questions about sound. I would love to hear from anybody that wants to participate but I’d truly love to hear from those of you with some sound reinforcement experience. Here goes ~

1. Is it possible to dial in the sound we want AND get that sound out to the audience?
2. In a situation without PA support, what are the common mistakes us bass players make in projecting a solid bass sound to the audience?
3. In a situation where there is PA support, what tends to be the single biggest mistake that sound reinforcement folks tend to make these days?
4. I find that sometimes I hear the same rig, same settings, same bass differently. Am I going crazy or is there something else that can happen to the ear that might explain why it sound differently?
5. Similar to question 4, I find that just standing in a different spot can make a huge difference to what I hear. With that in mind, what chance is there that a good overall bass sound will ever be projected to the majority of the audience in a ‘no support’ vs. ‘PA support’ situations?

1. Possible, but not easy.
2. Using an amp that is too small and not using enough speakers. 500 watts is great, but 500 watts through 8 speakers will be much louder than a single 500 watt speaker.
3. Placing speakers incorrectly, boosting the wrong frequencies. Placing subs far apart instead of right next to each other. Not considering room acoustics in their placement. Scooping the mids.
4. Acoustics. Your amp placed a certain distance from a wall/ceiling/floor will cancel out frequencies with that same wave length. Properly placed, the walls, floor, and ceiling will help you. Placed incorrectly, you'll be pushing your amp much harder for nothing.
5. Same answer as 4. Acoustics. The speaker is pushing the air forward, not so much to the side. Bass radiating from a single point(cab or group of cabs) should give most people a good sound if you have the proper amount of watts and speaker area.

[pedro]

2. Using an amp that is too small and not using enough speakers. 500 watts is great, but 500 watts through 8 speakers will be much louder than a single 500 watt speaker.

I understand but sometimes we gotta live with what we got. Lets say its a smallish club (50-75 people), with no PA support. What can we do (or not do) with our gear that would maximize our ability to get a solid, defined sound out to the club?

3. Placing speakers incorrectly, boosting the wrong frequencies. Placing subs far apart instead of right next to each other. Not considering room acoustics in their placement. Scooping the mids.

I think I know what you're getting at but perhaps you could elaborate on the speaker placement. Also, it would help me to know how you adjust for certain room acoustics - a boomy room? A room w/ concrete floors? etc, just some often seen situations. FWIW, I run my amp flat.

[Diggler]

RE: #1

It's not too hard as long as someone in your band owns the PA and you can set it up yourself.

I don't tweak my processors to sound good through my amp. I tweak it so that it sounds good through the PA.

[pedro]

I don't tweak my processors to sound good through my amp. I tweak it so that it sounds good through the PA.

Diggler (nice handle, BTW), I don't have any effects or processors. Do you always go thru the PA?

[Joe P]

Originally Posted by pedro

...what chance is there that a good overall bass sound will ever be projected to the majority of the audience in a ‘no support’ vs. ‘PA support’ situations?

That's why I decided on a PA cab for my bass.

I'm very pleased with my JBL JRX125 cab - that's 2X15s and a 1"-throat horn that's crossed-over at 2KHz.

Nice, eeeeeeven dispersion! I can put it behind the drummer, and that thing sounds pretty-darn consistant all over the room. And it only cost me $400; I've seen'em for even cheaper!

Kinda heavy, though - 97lbs.

Joe

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by pedro

I understand but sometimes we gotta live with what we got. Lets say its a smallish club (50-75 people), with no PA support. What can we do (or not do) with our gear that would maximize our ability to get a solid, defined sound out to the club?



I think I know what you're getting at but perhaps you could elaborate on the speaker placement. Also, it would help me to know how you adjust for certain room acoustics - a boomy room? A room w/ concrete floors? etc, just some often seen situations. FWIW, I run my amp flat.

Boost mids, and turn down the bass if you're dealing with low power and/or not enough speaker area. Solid and defined can be defined many ways for different players. Boosting the mids helps clear up the sound which could have the effect of defining the sound a bit better, but I think solid sound needs the proper amount of power to achieve.

Speaker placement is an art in itself. This is all in my experience...some of which may be "incorrect". Group the subs together, don't split them apart. If the sound is coming from one point, or one vertical line, it will be clearer and have less frequency cancellations. Placing PA subs next to walls, especially in the corner, can increase their output by a noticeable amount. Depends on the size of the subs on the distance I believe, not too sure. I just experiment until I find something that works well. Also, if you're bass cab is pointed at your knees, you probably won't hear it very well unless you stand far away. Either tilt it back, elevate it, or get more speakers to stack up.

Room acoustics are usually adressed by EQing. Getting too much boom can be solved by pulling back the bass or lower mids. A lot of mud, pull back the lower mids. Not getting enough boom, not sure you can help that without more power and speakers, something I haven't run in to often. Running the amp flat is usually good place to start. I usually only cut frequencies I don't need instead of boosting ones I do need.

[sb69coupe]

Originally Posted by pedro

I understand but sometimes we gotta live with what we got. Lets say its a smallish club (50-75 people), with no PA support. What can we do (or not do) with our gear that would maximize our ability to get a solid, defined sound out to the club?

Your bass tone will be easier to get solid out front than the guitar. Guitar amps are highly directional, and the higher frequencies will be such that the folks directly in front of the guitar amp will be blasted away while folks off to either side will barely hear the guitar at all.

For your bass, set your rig as close to the back wall as possible and dial in the EQ for the best tone as you can get while standing out in the area where the audience will be. Dial in the tone when playing with all other instruments so your bass sits well in the mix.

Without PA, how are you planning to run any vocals?

[enim]

Also, in most typical venues with a permenent PA, there is a "subwoofer power alley" (click here) That causes the bass to get a little nuts.

Really, you should do some reading in here: http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/ its a really good resource. click on a link on the chalkboard to get started.

[pedro]

For your bass, set your rig as close to the back wall as possible and dial in the EQ for the best tone as you can get while standing out in the area where the audience will be. Dial in the tone when playing with all other instruments so your bass sits well in the mix.

Understood.

Without PA, how are you planning to run any vocals?

I meant no PA support for the instruments.

Really, you should do some reading in here: http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/ its a really good resource. click on a link on the chalkboard to get started.

(This is where pedro’s eyes glaze over.) I'll read it but I got to tell you that I find most of these technical articles seem to go right over my head.

[Diggler]

Originally Posted by pedro

Diggler (nice handle, BTW), I don't have any effects or processors. Do you always go thru the PA?

Yep. I own the PA and have been continually upgrading it so that the stage amps will be irrelevant. I use a GNX4 and run direct into that, and run to an amp and cabinet for stage volume for the benefit of those in my band without IEMs.

By the way, about prosoundweb... just read a lot. Also go to http://disc.server.com/Indices/22769.html ... they're much more newbie friendly. Two years ago, I was relearning everything after taking several years off. I rebuilt a system from scratch and research everything... not just what to get, but WHY. A couple rules like distances to avoid to walls, coupling subs, gain structure, etc. go a LONG way towards better sound. Just try to pick up another tip or trick once a week and you'll be there in no time.

[pedro]

Yep. I own the PA and have been continually upgrading it so that the stage amps will be irrelevant.

I see.

I use a GNX4 and run direct into that, and run to an amp and cabinet for stage volume for the benefit of those in my band without IEMs.

GNX4 and IEMs?

Just try to pick up another tip or trick once a week and you'll be there in no time.

You’re either by nature a lot more optimistic than I am or are unaware of just how clueless I am about such things.

[sb69coupe]

Originally Posted by pedro

You’re either by nature a lot more optimistic than I am or are unaware of just how clueless I am about such things.

Well, if you want to learn and become less clueless, start reading. There's no magic formula to this, you just have to read as much material as you can until you start to understand things.

Otherwise, you'll remain in the dark and have no idea how to deal with sound reinforcement issues when they arise.

[pedro]

Well, if you want to learn and become less clueless, start reading.

I have tried but very little seems to sink in. I keep trying, as evidenced by this thread.

[sb69coupe]

Originally Posted by pedro

I have tried but very little seems to sink in. I keep trying, as evidenced by this thread.

Start by asking the simple questions here, or over at the sound reinforcement forums listed above. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and everyone had to learn this stuff one way or another.

[pedro]

There's no such thing as a stupid question, and everyone had to learn this stuff one way or another.

Thanks. I will try.

[Esquillama]

Originally Posted by pedro

GNX4 and IEMs?

GNX4 = a multi-effects unit with foot pedals that sits on the
floor with a few output options.

IEM's = In Ear Monitors. Those little earplug looking things
that you see the performer's wearing in concert footage.
They are just that, monitors that fit in your ear.

Hope this helps.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by pedro

I’m not quite sure that this is the right place for this thread but I have some questions about sound. I would love to hear from anybody that wants to participate but I’d truly love to hear from those of you with some sound reinforcement experience. Here goes ~

1. Is it possible to dial in the sound we want AND get that sound out to the audience?
2. In a situation without PA support, what are the common mistakes us bass players make in projecting a solid bass sound to the audience?
3. In a situation where there is PA support, what tends to be the single biggest mistake that sound reinforcement folks tend to make these days?
4. I find that sometimes I hear the same rig, same settings, same bass differently. Am I going crazy or is there something else that can happen to the ear that might explain why it sound differently?
5. Similar to question 4, I find that just standing in a different spot can make a huge difference to what I hear. With that in mind, what chance is there that a good overall bass sound will ever be projected to the majority of the audience in a ‘no support’ vs. ‘PA support’ situations?

1. yes

2. Setting the sound up for yourself more than the fith row ofthe audience. And not enough amp.

3. Not knowing what the heck their doing. DI-ing just the bass.

4. Ear fatigue, room acoustics, outside shows- temp and humidity.

5. Somewhat slim on a regular basis

JKT

[pedro]

Esquillama thanks for the information.

3. Not knowing what the heck their doing. DI-ing just the bass.

What do you mean, ‘DI-ing just the bass’?

4. Ear fatigue, room acoustics, outside shows- temp and humidity.

But as I said, even in the same room I sometimes hear differently.

[Vanceman]

I'm playing without PA support, and the band is always telling me to turn up. Since I'm stand right in front of my cab, I set a stage volume so I can hear everyone else. I'm getting better at turning up.