Volume problem with band member

[Sparkdog]

Looking for help from those who may have dealt with this before...

I have a really good band that's been gigging for about 6 months now. All the players are seasoned pros (yeah, we're old) and response to the material has been overwhelmingly positive.

We have a standing monthly gig at a local club, more on the way, a new demo in the works...everything is going really well.

Except for one little problem: our keyboard player is one of the loudest I have ever worked with. Last gig he was so loud I couldn't hear the monitors, and since I'm the singer as well as the bassist that's a problem. Worse, the club told us if we don't bring down our volume for the next show they have to take us off the schedule. That would mean losing a year's worth of gigs (this is our monthly gig and we're there all of 2009)

Now this is a problem I've encountered often with young inexperienced players, but this guy is a total pro in every respect (except this one!).

He's toured with many national acts and done more sessions than he can count. But when we ask him to turn down it's like he's annoyed by it and is somehow above that sort of thing.

All I know is it strikes me as very unprofessional, regardless of his credentials, and if we can't get him to cooperate I'm going to replace him before he costs us gigs we don't want to lose.

Anybody dealt with this or have advice on how we might approach him? He really is a great player and a good guy and we'd prefer to keep him on, but something has to give or he's out.

Thanks guys.

[BFISHER1970]

Have him try in-ears

[lefthandedmutha]

That is a toughie.
I would advocate the honesty approach.
First subtly. Don't gang up on him, but calmly tell him he's a bit loud at times and that its difficult to perform with the volume that loud. He may not realize he's blowing everyone out the door.
If he doesn't take the hint.
Then there's always brutal honesty. ie. we're going to lose this gig if you don't turn down.
If he's a pro like you say, that shouldn't ruffle his feathers too much. However, egos being egos, who really knows how he will react? Definitely a cruddy spot to be in. Good luck.

[Dave Muscato]

Doesn't sound like a toughie to me. "F" subtlety when cash flow is at stake. Do not hint; do not worry about ruffling feathers or bruising egos. The talent buyer specifically told you that you need to turn down or lose the gig? There is no debate here—the boss tells you to turn down, you turn down. If your keyboard player won't go along, either he's having monitoring problems or it sounds like you need to find an actual "professional" keyboard player.

If he's having monitoring problems, get him a spot monitor and let him crank the crap out of that instead.

[MatticusMania]

When politely telling him that he has a volume issue be sure to bring up the fact that it could cost the rest of the band a years worth of gigs.

Maybe his ears are going bad? But as a professional you shouldnt have to be dealing with these things that every musician should know.

[standupright]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

Doesn't sound like a toughie to me. "F" subtlety when cash flow is at stake. Do not hint; do not worry about ruffling feathers or bruising egos. The talent buyer specifically told you that you need to turn down or lose the gig? There is no debate here—the boss tells you to turn down, you turn down. If your keyboard player won't go along, either he's having monitoring problems or it sounds like you need to find an actual "professional" keyboard player.

If he's having monitoring problems, get him a spot monitor and let him crank the crap out of that instead.

+1

we as a group sat down one rehearsal and had a conversation about level. and made it very important that when requested to turn down, that it's nothing personal or ego induced, but doen out of true concern for our sound. we're all adults and should be able to accept this

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

Do not hint; do not worry about ruffling feathers or bruising egos. The talent buyer specifically told you that you need to turn down or lose the gig? There is no debate here—the boss tells you to turn down, you turn down.

+100
Then ask him "Why won't you turn down to balance with the rest of the band when asked?

If your keyboard player won't go along, either he's having monitoring problems or it sounds like you need to find an actual "professional" keyboard player.

If you had more gigs, this would be a problem at every gig. Who does the sound for the band? Who's the leader? If you had a sound guy, would the keyboard player turn down if the sound guy asked? I mean, you're the vocalist and can't hear the monitors? So how does the rest of the band know how they sound? What do the other band members have to say about this problem? Does his volume level bother them?

FWIW, I did sound for a friend's group a couple of weeks ago, both at practice (checking out new mini-mixer) and at a gig. Keyboard player had two Roland Cubes and was over powering at times because the sound was going underneath him (amps sitting side by side).

At the gig I had him turn the cubes on their sides and stack them. He was able to hear himself and balance in the mix fine w/o much adjustment from me (he wasn't miked). The bass player said it was the first time he was really able to hear the keyboards clearly on stage.

[rakirksey]

I've had a similar situation with a loud keyboard player. His excuse was his failing hearing.

Whenever we asked him to turn down, he turned all passive agressive and turned up just to make a point. Either way, we tried to have him raise his amp using an amp stand and to point it directly at his ear. So essentially he tasted more of his loud volume than anyone else. This does have a similar effect to in-ears.

Again ... you could always put some electrical shock mechanism if he turned his volume past 3 or so. Pavlov had some pretty good techniques.

[Adam Bomb]

I get to watch my keyboard player carefully remove his hearing aids when the volume of his playing gets too much for him.

I am not joking.

--Bomb

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by rakirksey

Whenever we asked him to turn down, he turned all passive agressive and turned up just to make a point.

That's when I pack up, load out, and tell him to give me a call when he's ready to turn down.

[Steve]

That's when I tell him to pack up, load out and to come back when he's ready to turn down

but seriously, if there's money at risk, especially an entire years worth of money, the guy needs to know in no uncertain terms that it's STFU time.

[phatbass]

Be straight and upfront. After more than a quarter century I have to admit I'm sick 'n' tired of having to deal with ego **** and treading on eggshells. It doesn't have to be nasty, just tell him the facts. He's NOT on a huge stage playing to 30,000 people in a stadium; he's in a club that holds a couple hundred (or whatever) people and a) the vocalist can't hear the monitors and b) you're gonna lose the gig.

See if things can be worked out e.g having his own monitor mix through a speaker close to his ears. If he doesn't want to comply, it sounds like it's bye-bye time.

Being cruel, if you've got decent gigs you won't have too much trouble finding a more amenable replacement.

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by Sparkdog

But when we ask him to turn down it's like he's annoyed by it and is somehow above that sort of thing.

All I know is it strikes me as very unprofessional...

It is.

Originally Posted by Sparkdog

... regardless of his credentials, and if we can't get him to cooperate I'm going to replace him before he costs us gigs we don't want to lose.

Talk to him first, but fool me once...

Originally Posted by Sparkdog

Anybody dealt with this or have advice on how we might approach him?

It's easier than you're making it. You don't need to be talking to us, you need to be talking to him! Try this:

"The club owner told me that we have to turn down or he's going to take us off the schedule for the rest of the year. Your keys are way too loud. I couldn't even hear my own monitor at our last gig. If you need another monitor, we'll hook one up, but you're blasting and you're gonna cost us this gig. I want you to keep it down from now on, and we'll do the same. Can you do that?"

Don't attack 'em, WAC 'em (tell him What's bothering you, Ask for what you want, Check in with him to make sure he agrees to what you need him to do.)

Hope this helps!

[Way_Off_Bass]

a few months ago, we shared a gig with a group of real pros, including Gilby Clarke and Dizzy Reed (both ex-GNR), the drummer from White Zombie, the bass player from LA Guns. We opened for them. Small, private club affair they were flown in for. They used our equipment.

All of them were BLISTERING loud. The bassist was driving my amp in a way I never had. I couldn't understand why they were all turned up so so loud.

and yet they are seasoned pros...?

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

Check in with him to make sure he agrees to what you need him to do.)

I would also let him know that the band will do a sound check and let him know what his volume level should be and can he agree to not increase his level beyond that for the entire gig.

If there's no sound guy, I suggest that the OP go wireless or get a long enough cord so he can go FOH and get the levels where they should be.

One problem that I hear about regularly is the keys playing 10 finger cords and/or bass lines with the left hand.
One way to reduce his volume is to play right-handed cords on most songs. Otherwise, too much mid-range that step on both the guitars and bass.

[neuromancer]

I have a similar problem with the keyboard player in my band - however in this case I can't really call him a "pro." He certainly has the ability, but that's it.

I think what frustrates me the most is that not only is he always the loudest at practice, he's constantly complaining that we're playing too loud and he can't hear anything.......given that I usually have my amp set on 1.5.....this is starting to wear thin.

The only explanation I can think of is both of these cases is hearing loss. I have never seen the guy in my band wear earplugs even once in the last 4 years. I'm sure suggesting to someone (no matter how politely...) that they may have suffered some hearing loss usually doesn't go over too well?

[ksandvik]

Originally Posted by neuromancer

I have a similar problem with the keyboard player in my band - however in this case I can't really call him a "pro." He certainly has the ability, but that's it.

I think what frustrates me the most is that not only is he always the loudest at practice, he's constantly complaining that we're playing too loud and he can't hear anything.......given that I usually have my amp set on 1.5.....this is starting to wear thin.

The only explanation I can think of is both of these cases is hearing loss. I have never seen the guy in my band wear earplugs even once in the last 4 years. I'm sure suggesting to someone (no matter how politely...) that they may have suffered some hearing loss usually doesn't go over too well?

It could indeed be the problem, or lack of understanding how balancing a band volume works. Or then he has a hard time hearing himself with his monitor -- that could be helped by angling it towards his ears or something similar.

Communication is key here.

As for not wearing hearing protection, that's plain stupid.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by neuromancer

I'm sure suggesting to someone (no matter how politely...) that they may have suffered some hearing loss usually doesn't go over too well?

If it's affecting the band, then you have to confront(in a positive way) the issue.

Maybe his amp should be next to his head. Other alternatives include reducing drummer volume (put double thick sound board around drums or mutes(t-shirts on drums). Get all amps at ear level pointing to each user. Installing carpet on the walls of the practice room (will reduce echos). Rearrange the amps so that each player can hear themselves better.

How about getting him a mix through some headphones where he can hear his keys? Or maybe the drummer can learn some dynamics and play at 1/2 volume so everyone can turn down.

Here's a thought: mic everyone at rehearsal. Turn down the volume on each amp so it's barely audible( or maybe face the amps toward the walls) then balance everything through the PA/monitors.

I was at a friend's rehearsal recently and they had the same problem. I suggested that they experiment with all of the above alternatives.

[LP75]

I have had a similar volume problem with 2 different keyboardists, and both were using Roland amps. They were both heavy in the bass registers, and were stepping all over my bass parts.
One guy was so stubborn we let him go. At several rehearsals, after being asked repeatedly to either turn down, or stop playing bass with his left hand, he continued. Several times I simply stopped playing, and no one except the drummer noticed as this guy plowed ahead, playing all the bass parts himself.

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by LP75

I have had a similar volume problem with 2 different keyboardists, and both were using Roland amps. They were both heavy in the bass registers, and were stepping all over my bass parts.
One guy was so stubborn we let him go. At several rehearsals, after being asked repeatedly to either turn down, or stop playing bass with his left hand, he continued. Several times I simply stopped playing, and no one except the drummer noticed as this guy plowed ahead, playing all the bass parts himself.

That's a whole other story you've got there man. Too loud is one thing, and can be easy to remedy. A keys player with a heavy left hand, not so much. That's the unforgivable sin of keys players in my book.